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Films => Lady in the Water => Topic started by: deaocamrith on July 26, 2006, 12:11:16 PM

Title: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: deaocamrith on July 26, 2006, 12:11:16 PM
 This movie is so so bad.  It makes no sense.  Poor acting, poor writing, just plain poor.  It was like M Night watched 20 movies the night before he wrote it and then just randomly copied that stuff he watched into this plot.  

It really says something when the audience of your film breaks out laughing at parts that were meant to be serious.  That happened 7 times at the theater i was at.  Starting with that cheesy opening and ending with the evil lawn monkeys killing the lawn dog.  The eagle reminded me of the eagel on the colbeirt report.  M night sucks at acting too.  I want a refund or atleast a promise to make no more movies.    
Title: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Specter on July 26, 2006, 12:30:43 PM
 Can you elaborate on reasons why it is so awful?  I've yet to be convinced that this film is anything less than brilliant.  When it comes to an audience laughing at serious moments, what kind of audience is it?  An audience of fans or an audience of people going to see a movie that's been marketed as a horror movie?
Title: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Miles on July 26, 2006, 01:12:13 PM
 This is obviously the group that thought the grudge was scary, or the group that thinks sam raimi is a good director. Come on now, he watched movies and copied down what he saw? are you Ducking kidding me? This is the most original movie ive seen in a long time, and the audience you saw it with must be a small percentage of people with that view because everyone Ive talked to, including people who didnt like the village, says they think its awsome that he created every aspect of the movie. People who know a thing or two about movies really appreciate nights work and really respect what hes done with this movie. And as for Nights acting, he never claimed to be great, he said it was to make it more personal for him that he chose to do it, and i think he did great, one of my favorite characters in the story. You no real reasons why the movie is awful, only "because i said so reasons" like the acting was awful and the writing was awful, your just like the movie critic in the movie, and just like fatass roger ebert who cant stop eating long enough to have an original thought in his Ducking head. excuse my language but he pisses me off beyond believe I dont know how roper hasnt just punched him yet. IM so tired of people putting Night down, if it werent for Night all we would have is remakes and sequals and movies that are just alike. Nights one of about 3 original directors in this world and i dont see that changing anytime soon. If you dont get his movies you need to go read a book becuase you obviously dont have the mind power to appreciate any kind of art. Night is so obviously an amazing director, not only from watching his movies but seeing him in action while he was making the village, I know for a fact how good he is. And if you think the story to Lady is ridiculous, GOOD. Its supposed to sound ridiculous thats the point, that something so off the wall and insane can acctually be true. Night said him self we are supposed to feel exactlly what Pual is feeling the whole movie, learning things when he does and thinking it sounds crazy just like he does. There are no good reasons people have for hating nights movies besides "it wasnt scary enough" or "i cant believe the monsters werent real" (sorry weve all seen the village anyways) or "i dont get it", the latter is my favorite, stupid fickle minded movie goers. Go watch The ring 2 and drool over the same old crap like the rest of the ******* night doubters with no brain. Im out.
Title: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Dr.Hill42 on July 26, 2006, 03:45:57 PM
 I'm so goddam sorry that you were actually expected to THINK during a movie deaocamrith. You're right, people like you shouldn't go seem movies like this, you should have just gone to see "My Super Ex-Girlfriend" or  "Land Before Time MCLLVVXI". Expand your mind and let your imagination soar, if you do this I promise you you will enjoy the movie 500% more. But if you are too stubourn to fathom the idea of absorbing a movie and are wasting every scene looking for 'clues' to the "SURPRISE ENDING" then don't even bother complaining, because in that case it is nobody's fault but your own that the movie wasn't "enjoyable" for you.  
Title: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Punkyviolin on July 26, 2006, 05:21:33 PM
 <_< I haven't seen de movie AS YET, but I am planning to.  I've watched only four of M. Night movies so far - the Village; the Sixth Sense; Unbreakable; Signs - I am dying to add the others to my list to view.

 ;) I take every sense of the movie with a grain of salt and think of bedtime stories being told when I was a child that would scare the poop outta me and would have me laughing at the same time.

Pirates was a hit at the box office, but we didn't stay to see the ending.  Many parts of Pirates was unnecessary but it was a hit with FAR more people than Lady was at the box office. :unsure:

To each his own...I am a fan and I can deal with others slamming this movie...I will still go...maybe at midnight! :ph34r:

 :P p.s.  Thanks for creating dis site!
Title: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: leelee on July 26, 2006, 07:07:51 PM
 Even if you didn't like the movie deaocamrith, calling it the worst movie ever is plain stupid and makes you look bad. Even if you hated the movie (though pretty much all of us here, including me adore it) does not mean it's the worst movie ever...lets reserve that for some other piece of crap films. thanks  :rolleyes:  
Title: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: okokokok on July 27, 2006, 01:56:31 AM
 It's his first post.  He's trolling.  He's not getting the attention he wants from his mom so this is the only way he knows how to get it.  It's gonna be ok deaocamrith.  
Title: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Dr.Hill42 on July 27, 2006, 11:40:55 AM
 Yes, it seems even Night fans have souls...
Title: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: dblockdedicated on July 28, 2006, 10:20:02 PM
 eh it was alright, nothing on top of his list.

To much repetition. Same Score, same dialogue.

it was good, but his worst yet.


The Village owns every other movie though
Title: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Dr.Hill42 on July 29, 2006, 11:41:18 AM
 The score couldn't be more different, of course its going to have the same feel to it its by the same guy...
Title: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: San Jose Shark on August 04, 2006, 12:00:36 AM
 I loved this movie but everyone i know has stopped seeing his movies since Signs and they think he's a joke. I was at the doctors today and i asked him if he has seen any movies lately and he said "yeah, my wife and i went to see this absolutely horrible movie but i cant remember the name of it" i asked him was it Lady in the Water? and he said "yes, what a pointless stupid move that makes no sense" i was like "lick my balls maing"
Title: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Sri HK on August 04, 2006, 03:35:06 AM
  :lol:  
Title: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: puterart on August 04, 2006, 03:58:38 PM
 I can think of two films that were worse off the top of my head, AI and The Village.

I disagree, as a whole, that the acting was poor. Paul Giamatti is an amazing actor and I don't think he was anything less in this movie. However, I'd have to agree that Night isn't the best actor and his performance in this one proves it. I thought some of the other performances were sub-par too, but as a whole the acting was alright.

I understand what you Night fans are saying when you talk about opening one's mind and using some imagination. It's obvious that Night is very creative and imaginative, but just because a film is imaginative or creative doesn't make it good. This film is not good . . . at all at least in terms of story line and content. I enjoyed the cinematography and can respect a handful of the shots.

I know the film is about a children's story, but it came out resembling a story written by a child. I don't mean that in a sarcastic put-down sense, I mean it in a literal sense. The ideas were so flimsy and uncohesive it really resembled the way a child writes a story. Night seemed to just be making stuff up on the fly to make the film work. For instance when we find out that all the people Cleveland thought were intrinsic to Story's return turn out to be irrelevant and all of a sudden he figures it out. This followed by the kid randomly saying, "I read it wrong" after the initial "Healer" turns out not to be the healer at all without any background. These just seemed like easy ways out to a story that was falling apart.

There were two things that really bothered me with the film. The first was how it had the smart ass "New Guy" or "13B" character who dies. This guy is obviously a representation of people Night sees as film snobs, people who think they know all there is to know about a film before they see it. I understand what he was doing, but I don't think it needed to be SO obvious. Having a character step out of the film and run commentary the way the "New Guy" did right before he got killed is something better left to movies that fall in the genre of "Scary Movie". It was revolting at best.

The second aspect that really bothered me was Night's character. The character is supposed to write some really important work that shapes and molds the ideologies of a future president who takes these ideas and changes the world. This made me sick. It would have been fine if this character wasn't played by the guy who wrote the film, but it was, and that was kind of . . . . disgusting.

As for people in the theatre laughing at all of the serious parts. Yep, this happened in the theatre that I saw it in too. Most of it was laughable. Not quite as laughable as The Village, which looking back I think may actually be one of the funniest movies I've ever seen, but still quite laughable. The moments of comic relief completely failed and the moments that were supposed to touch and or move the audience completely failed too.

This is my opionion and I'm sure most people here will disagree with it, but I feel that most of the people here didn't go into the movie theatre without some pre-disposed notion he/she would be leaving satisfied. Afterall, this is a site for M. Night Shyamalan fans.
Title: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: okokokok on August 04, 2006, 08:09:48 PM
 Isn't it funny when people's first post at a specific website is only to say bad things about the websites main subject?  Why waste time going somewhere were people enjoy something and talk about how much you disliked it?  I'm fine with people not liking this film, but it's so strange when this sort of thing happens. It's interesting to me.  I've never even thought about going to a site like this for someone or something I don't care for, like let's say Tarantino.  It's seems like such a negative waste of time to go talk about how horrible I thought Kill Bill 1 & 2 was ya know? Just strange.

Secondly, I didn't think anything negatively about the parts that you did.  In fact, I loved the way we find out that Mr. Heeb is the Healer.  How you can say that was an easy way out of storytelling is amazing to me.  That's Giamatti's whole character.  He was always a healer.  He was a doctor, and then he needed to become what he was always supposed to be again, by healing Story and himself.

I also loved the part when the critic steps outside the movie.  I love the idea of mixing genres.  I think it worked, personally.  It's good to know that some filmakers don't think that films don't have to be a specific way, or that one can only do things that a specific genre dictates.  That just seems close minded and restrictive, to me anyways.

The only reason I wish M night didn't play that character is because so many other people have a problem with it.  I've read alot of reviews that were like word for word what you wrote about him. So it would be great to see what some people though about the film with him not in that role, as that seems to be one of the largest reasons for disliking it.  I think he was great in it.

Also, it appears as though you were speaking for the audience when you said humorous and dramatic parts failed.  I laughed and cried during this movie, and so did many others.  I've read quite a few reviews from other people who love this film also. So part of your review is factually wrong.  

Lastly, I have loved, adored, ALL M Nights movies since Unbreakable.  But the trailers weren't getting me too excited about this movie.  And the early reviews actually had me thinking this wouldn't be good.  So imagine my surprise when it turned out to be one of the best movies I have ever seen.  I don't mind others opinions.  It's just funny when people do more then give their opinion, and try to speak for whole groups of people or specifically go to where fans are of something and then start talking about a movie they don't like.  If you had been a member here, and liked some of his other movies, totally different situation.  It just always seems suspicious otherwise.  Is this the only place you gave a review?
Title: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: puterart on August 04, 2006, 09:14:33 PM
 Hmm, it is interesting isn't it. Yes this in fact the only place I've given a recview. In fact, it's the only time I've ever written a review of any movie other than for required papers in college. Though I don't see what that has to do with anything. How did you manage to not have a first post to this site? That's really impressive.

I thought it was interesting that you noted how I seemed to be saying the same things that everyone else said about Shyamalan playing the role that he did because I honestly had not read a single review of this movie outside of this website which severely lacks any real criticizm. So if so many people seem to be coming to the same conclusion then shouldn't that give it credibility?

Is it such a negative waste of time to talk about how horrible you thought Kill Bill 1 & 2 were? Wouldn't it then be similarly such a waste of time to talk about how much you enjoyed this movie? I'm not so sure you "don't mind" others opinions.

I did not intend to speak for the entire audience when I commented on how the dramatic and comedic parts failed, I was actually speaking on behalf of the entire audience that I viewed it with at the theatre. I was speaking on behalf of all the people walking down the isle shaking their heads and laughing. I could understand how you laughed at the movie. I found it pretty funny too, but did you actually cry? What a sissy. Kidding. But seriously what part/parts did you cry at? I'm just curious.

Okay, so we've established I'm not a member here, but I have enjoyed some of Night's other films. The Sixth Sense was great, really great. Signs was decent. I thought I'd give my opinion here though because up until now it didn't really seem to be represented, but you're right, I should have joined, scattered ridiculous ass kissing comments throughout the site for several weeks/months before I actually posted a real comment. That's what I should have done, Hitler.
Title: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: okokokok on August 04, 2006, 10:18:01 PM
 Wether or not you gave a review elsewhere is about what are you hoping to gain or what is your point by doing this?  Why is what I'm curious about.  The opening thread has your same opinion, so it is represented actually.  I only have issues with you speaking for other people is all.  Not that you didn't like it.  It's so much more interesting to me that you have never written a review about a movie anywhere ever.  And then when you do, it's to talk about about a movie you didn't like at a site where people come to discuss a director they really appreciate. Do you prefer spending your time discussing and going over things you dislike rather then dealing with things you like? This site is lacking much criticism because it's an M Night website.  Thats is, a place that people most likely seek out because they are interested in him and his movies and wish to find more information and discuss him and his movies.  A place where people might like the way he does things, so it's more likely there would be less criticism.  Makes sense to me.  Doesn't mean we dont visit other sights and know how others feel.  Ofcourse, all are welcome, even those who think badly of M night and his films.  But this brings me back to my point of why?  I see a bad movie and I'm done with it.  If don't care for someones work, I don't go to their site.  I don't seek them out.  I'm not saying there shouldn't be a discussion of a movie if it isn't good. If I'm at work and people are talking about a movie I didn't like, I might discuss it then. But why SEEK OUT a place like this to register and then spend time writing first review ever!!?!? For me, that would be a tremendous waste of time.  Now if you had been a member here, it would be different because coming here to talk about his movies would be the norm.  It would be what you choose to do with your spare time, probably because you like him.  Hopefully this makes sense.  To repeat, I don't know what you hope to gain.  We have all read bad reviews.  Alot of people mention them in other topics.

As far as M Mnights role, I was pointing out that alot of people said what you said because of the very fact that so many with the same opinion does give the greivance more credibility.  That is why I said part of me wishes that someone else had played the role, so that all that those who had a problem with it wouldn't have a problem with it.  I wish that because I do give that opinion credibility.  It doesn't mean that it's the only opinion about that matter.  

If you know for a fact how every person in the audience you were with felt, that's another story.  I just didn't know that you knew exactly how ever single person in your audience felt.  I guess that's my bad.

I cry during the part where he heals story and talks about how he regrets not being able to help his family when they were murdered and how much he misses them.  It's also very moving to me that he does it in front of all those people and that all these people are coming together to help someone, even though the circumstances seem so insane.

I never said you should have joined first and made stuff up.  You have every right to join just to give a bad review.  It just comes across as suspicious.  If thinking something is suspicious makes me Hitler, then, well what does someone say to that exactly?  You didn't come here to make friends and talk about something that you have in common with others.  So my first thought is why do this.  
 
Title: what!?!?!
Post by: SignsAreGood on September 24, 2006, 07:48:02 PM
all i have to say is, is it was a fantastic movie. not like any i have ever seen. also deaocamrith is a douche who doesnt know a good original movie when he sees one. and the audience you had, they all take it in the ass. so like the other dudes were saying why dont you and the audience all get together and watch the grudge  again.
Title: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Rohan on September 25, 2006, 06:24:12 PM
TO deaocamrith,

Well, not to be disrespect, but I think you sound like an fony person to me. And those audience that were watching the movie with you, they were just like you. so please stop bashing something that is more original.

People like you likes movies like 'BASIC INSTINCT' having graphic sex on the big screen and thats exactly how you like it. Movies are for educational purposes too, and M.Night's movies happened to be one of those EDUCATIONAL films.

Thank and have a nice day.
-Rohan
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Rulm on December 09, 2007, 11:13:22 PM
Yeah, I'm late but I want to be heard!!! Lol.

When I first watched this movie on the first day of release and the first showing, I loved it!!!...Time passes...I buy the DVD...I watch it...I then realize...It is NOWHERE as good as his others (Though, The Village was also disappointing). I had to wait for the fanboy in me to settle down in order to realize that I had MANY problems with this movie:

Cardboard characters (None of the characters seemed to have any real depth)
Stereotyped characters
Lack of scares and chills...Advertisement was WAY off!...Like The Village
MANY questions left unanswered
Confusing moments (A kid reading "prophesies" off cereal boxes!!!???)
Night casting himself as a writer who will change the world (ego got in the way)
The story seemed to be made up as the film progressed
Laughable moments when not intended (Tree monkeys!?)
A critic was killed (Obviously, Shyamalan's response to his critics...Bit childish)
Terrible pacing
Ending left me wondering if that was really it (ended abruptly)
No real "M. Night magic moment"

I am not saying it was terrible...It just seemed like Night didn't execute his ideas properly, therefore, his ideas seemed "half baked".
By far, my least favorite Night film...This is, of course, my opinion.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Specter on December 10, 2007, 12:21:02 AM
That's interesting.  I've spoken to many people about it, and they say how much they didn't really like it at first, but that it's growing on them.  I think, though, that each of your problems with the film could be discussed and probably explained somewhat easily.

For instance: "seemed made up as the film progressed..."

That is basically because it was derived from a bedtime story, where I am sure Night did make it up as he told it.  Watching it with the idea that, yes it is a bedtime story, it really helps to put yourself in the proper place to listen to the storyteller.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Rulm on December 10, 2007, 02:42:43 AM
That's interesting.  I've spoken to many people about it, and they say how much they didn't really like it at first, but that it's growing on them.  I think, though, that each of your problems with the film could be discussed and probably explained somewhat easily.

For instance: "seemed made up as the film progressed..."

That is basically because it was derived from a bedtime story, where I am sure Night did make it up as he told it.  Watching it with the idea that, yes it is a bedtime story, it really helps to put yourself in the proper place to listen to the storyteller.
I see where you are coming from, but a bedtime story is TOLD and a movie is SEEN. That is why I had a problem with it; SHOW don't TELL. The movie did have some great aspects to it though, such as it's cinematography and amazing musical score. It was unfortunate that I didn't like it as much as I was anticipating.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on December 11, 2007, 10:06:20 AM
I was anticipating this movie since when I first heard about it.  I went with my sister and a friend to the opening showing at the nearest theater.  I loved the movie.  Yes, there were a few weak points, but everything else outweighed them by far.  I disagree though, I think most of the characters were deep.  Shyamalan used each one to make a different point.  I think the movie is beautiful, and some parts do make me cry.  The ending, look at the rest of Shyamalan's films, they do end sortof abruptly.  I like that though.  I want a story, not just a scary movie, if that comes along with the film, then great, but otherwise I want a good story, which is why I don't like most action films.  Notice that Shyamalan doesn't do many interviews or have comentatries on his films.  In Lady In The Water, his character was sort of him speaking back to everyone that bashes him, each of his movies have a point.  Also, the movie critic, I felt like he represented all those people who have a preconceived notion about the way the world should be, to steal a line from Unbreakable, "Real life doesn't fit into little boxes made for it."  You can't predict the way things are going to turn out in the world, you can only anticipate. 
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: afi_village on December 15, 2007, 11:00:01 AM
i know it's late in the thread, but i just find this all really interesting and i think it's important not to just discount things people are saying because you don't agree with them.  puterart wrote a very well thought out review of the movie and backed up their reasons for disliking this film, which to me seems like a more valid and worthwhile post then writing pages of 'like, i love it, lol.'

did people even read those opinions?  i would like to hear peoples responses to this because quite frankly a lot of it did make sense.  i'm a die hard night fan, you should have seen my fangirl moment i had when i met rory culkin just because he was in signs.  i worship this director, but to be honest looking back on this film there were a lot of things that i really don't like.  i tried to ignore them or make dozens of excuses about why it's ok and it's original.  but it was just cause it was a night film.

ask yourself this.  if this movie was directed by some unknown first time director would you praise it as much as you are?  i feel like a lot of you are going to jump in and say yes without really thinking. maybe it is better for people not to think too hard about it and suck all the magic they have for the film out.

what i want is some indisputable evidence as to why this film is a masterpiece, and since that seems like a very unlikely thing to happen i would like to hear some solid opinions.  i don't mean to sound like a @#$%& or anything with this post, it just really disturbs me how much i'm finding that i don't like this movie.  i don't know if i can really say i love all m night films anymore and that's scary to me.  please help if you can.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Rulm on December 15, 2007, 02:33:36 PM
Wow,  that's deep. I completely agree, though. I love Night's earlier work, and I really can't understand what has happened to him lately. He can't blame the media--he's very secretive, he can't blame the script--he writes them, and he can't blame the studio's--they give him what he needs for his films, even Disney tried to help him out by asking him to rework his Lady in the Water script, but he didn't. Why? They just wanted to help him. I still have faith that Night will create something else that will blow me away. He needs to dig deep inside him and pull out a masterpiece. If he could execute his spiritual, and ethical ideas as well as he did with his first 3 thrillers, he would make a comeback. One more thing...No more acting! He was REALLY distracting in Lady in the Water. I enjoy his cameo appearances, but seeing him in an actual role--especially one that basically places him as the next Jesus Christ, doesn't help anyone. It doesn't help the fans, and it doesn't help him.

That being said, he is a fantastic director, but a script is arguably the most important part of a movie. If he needs help executing his ideas, he should collaborate with a professional writer. He just needs to learn to ask for help when he needs it--that doesn't make him a worse filmmaker. I still believe in him...Let's just hope that The Happening works out. :-X
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on December 15, 2007, 02:35:24 PM
I know I really like it.  One reason is because I like story of action and flashy stuff, that's one reason why I like.  Two-Yes it is made by Shyamalan so I like it for that reason.  Three-Excellent acting, Shyamalan and his casting directors make great choices on who to cast.  Four-Filming style-his filming style is so unique, precise, clear-cut, very clean.  Five-The realistic nature of his films and characters-yes the stories are somewhat far fetched, but the way everyone acts, some people say Jane Austen is a very good writer because she understood the way humans acted, I fell the same way about Shyamalan.  Those are the reasons I can think of right now, I'll probably come up with a few later.  And yes, I did read everyone elses posts and studied them.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: afi_village on December 15, 2007, 11:07:17 PM
Five-The realistic nature of his films and characters-yes the stories are somewhat far fetched, but the way everyone acts, some people say Jane Austen is a very good writer because she understood the way humans acted, I fell the same way about Shyamalan. 

i do agree with this point.  but at the same time i didn't feel the character development in litw was as strong as his other films.  after watching it a few times i don't feel a connection with them the way that i did with his others, which is always what i loved most about his movies.  i don't know, maybe i should watch it again i haven't seen it in a while.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Rulm on December 16, 2007, 03:43:52 AM
Five-The realistic nature of his films and characters-yes the stories are somewhat far fetched, but the way everyone acts, some people say Jane Austen is a very good writer because she understood the way humans acted, I fell the same way about Shyamalan. 

i do agree with this point.  but at the same time i didn't feel the character development in litw was as strong as his other films.  after watching it a few times i don't feel a connection with them the way that i did with his others, which is always what i loved most about his movies.  i don't know, maybe i should watch it again i haven't seen it in a while.

I've seen Lady in the Water 5 times, so far...It doesn't get any better. There was NO character development with most of the characters...Do any of Story's magical army change at all? No. They just went along with this "bedtime story" without asking questions and without having any meaningful opinions or dialog. How could they believe something so ridiculous? Because of the "pins and needles" feeling? C'mon! The only thread of development, if it could even be considered that, was Cleveland...But it was so minor, I didn't notice it until I thought about it after the film was over. It's an o.k film at best. Many fans will hate this statement...and that's a problem. Until fans realize that this film has many issues, and until they stop believing it's such a masterpiece, they will continue to have that veil over their eyes, shielding them from the truth; mediocrity.  Night is a true talent. I just hope he could get it back together.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on December 17, 2007, 12:19:30 PM
Five-The realistic nature of his films and characters-yes the stories are somewhat far fetched, but the way everyone acts, some people say Jane Austen is a very good writer because she understood the way humans acted, I fell the same way about Shyamalan. 

i do agree with this point.  but at the same time i didn't feel the character development in litw was as strong as his other films.  after watching it a few times i don't feel a connection with them the way that i did with his others, which is always what i loved most about his movies.  i don't know, maybe i should watch it again i haven't seen it in a while.

I've seen Lady in the Water 5 times, so far...It doesn't get any better. There was NO character development with most of the characters...Do any of Story's magical army change at all? No. They just went along with this "bedtime story" without asking questions and without having any meaningful opinions or dialog. How could they believe something so ridiculous? Because of the "pins and needles" feeling? C'mon! The only thread of development, if it could even be considered that, was Cleveland...But it was so minor, I didn't notice it until I thought about it after the film was over. It's an o.k film at best. Many fans will hate this statement...and that's a problem. Until fans realize that this film has many issues, and until they stop believing it's such a masterpiece, they will continue to have that veil over their eyes, shielding them from the truth; mediocrity.  Night is a true talent. I just hope he could get it back together.
Wow, hold on a minute Rulm, people enjoy different types of movies, that is why art is so far reaching, it can touch everyone in different ways.  You may not think Lady In The Water is very good, but other people do, unless you have a predetermined scale, created by unbiased people (hard to find) you can't judge other people's choices of what they like.  I got yelled at by some people the other day because I do not consider screamo music-music.  But, that is my opinion.  With the characters just going along with Story, that is her effect upon them, and they don't even realise it.  Remember Mr. Leeds character, I feel like he represents those people who want to believe in something more but are afraid to because there is no empiracal evidence to support that.  Yes, some of the characters are noth fleshed out, did you notice the ones that were-those who were some of the final people, the central characters.  He set it up, Reggie keeps showing up but aparently isn't one of the different people, that is until the end.  Those are my thoughts.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Rulm on December 17, 2007, 05:08:40 PM
Five-The realistic nature of his films and characters-yes the stories are somewhat far fetched, but the way everyone acts, some people say Jane Austen is a very good writer because she understood the way humans acted, I fell the same way about Shyamalan. 

i do agree with this point.  but at the same time i didn't feel the character development in litw was as strong as his other films.  after watching it a few times i don't feel a connection with them the way that i did with his others, which is always what i loved most about his movies.  i don't know, maybe i should watch it again i haven't seen it in a while.

I've seen Lady in the Water 5 times, so far...It doesn't get any better. There was NO character development with most of the characters...Do any of Story's magical army change at all? No. They just went along with this "bedtime story" without asking questions and without having any meaningful opinions or dialog. How could they believe something so ridiculous? Because of the "pins and needles" feeling? C'mon! The only thread of development, if it could even be considered that, was Cleveland...But it was so minor, I didn't notice it until I thought about it after the film was over. It's an o.k film at best. Many fans will hate this statement...and that's a problem. Until fans realize that this film has many issues, and until they stop believing it's such a masterpiece, they will continue to have that veil over their eyes, shielding them from the truth; mediocrity.  Night is a true talent. I just hope he could get it back together.
Wow, hold on a minute Rulm, people enjoy different types of movies, that is why art is so far reaching, it can touch everyone in different ways.  You may not think Lady In The Water is very good, but other people do, unless you have a predetermined scale, created by unbiased people (hard to find) you can't judge other people's choices of what they like.  I got yelled at by some people the other day because I do not consider screamo music-music.  But, that is my opinion.  With the characters just going along with Story, that is her effect upon them, and they don't even realise it.  Remember Mr. Leeds character, I feel like he represents those people who want to believe in something more but are afraid to because there is no empiracal evidence to support that.  Yes, some of the characters are noth fleshed out, did you notice the ones that were-those who were some of the final people, the central characters.  He set it up, Reggie keeps showing up but aparently isn't one of the different people, that is until the end.  Those are my thoughts.


Yeah, I know I'm being very harsh on this movie, and I apologize for that, but it is not to bring anyone down, it's just that I KNOW Night could do much better. The thing is, I want to know WHY. Why do people love it? I can't get a definitive answer. Movies with no character development could actually be very good (The Mist)...But because Night's films rely heavily on character when there is no scares and such (especially this particular one), it is VERY important to have character development...And Lady in the Water does not. He could do better--much better. Look at all his past films; all have great character development--Even The Village! Which is why I didn't hate it. If The Village had characters like those in Lady in the Water...It would have failed miserably, because The Village didn't have much else going for it. Yes, this is my opinion, but it is an opinion I back up with facts. Again, it's not to bring anyone down, heck, I'll LOVE IT if someone could prove me wrong by providing me with their perspective. And bias I am not; if I was, I would have loved this movie like the others, because I am a fan of Night. I do respect what everyone is saying. I just wish it was convincing.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: afi_village on December 18, 2007, 07:46:57 AM
i know it all comes down to opinion in what people consider good and bad, and really when analyzing art that shouldn't be your main priority anyway.  i just don't feel this film wasn't up to nights usual standard. 

to me it was like he planted a lot of small details that seemed very random, which he does in all his films.  the difference is that in his other movies they all tie up nicely at the end and make you go OH MY GOD, signs is the one that really stands out to me.  every detail is completely vital to the plot, even if you don't realize when you watch it the first time.  litw didn't do that, there were a lot of small things that were not addressed again.  there were details that just confused the plot rather then add to it. 

it just made a very choppy, incohesive plot for me to watch.  when i saw it for the first time i felt as though maybe there were scenes that had to be cut for time reasons, but there's no mention of that on the dvd...

i would still like some answers in how people would view the film if nights name was not attached. 
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on December 18, 2007, 10:14:00 AM
I wish Shyamalan would put commentaries on his films, it would be so much more helpful.  I think Shyamalan made Lady In The Water for the fans, it has a slightly different style then his previous films, a little more mellow, so lush, intensly beautiful.  Yes, there are many weak points, there isn't too much character development and it does appear that there are random details just thrown in.  I think it was designed to give hope to people.  Mr. Leeds, all he did was sit there, his son was over in Iraq, if I remember correctly?, he needed something to hold onto, all the people in the complex were hiding from something, that or they had no hope.  War is constantly in the background of the movie, Bob Dylan songs are playing, Story gives hope and courage to all those people, showing them that there is more to this world then they realise. 
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Rulm on December 18, 2007, 03:43:38 PM
I agree with the commentary thing. If Night provided some kind of commentary in the end, it may have answered many questions. OR...What if he made the movie with narration!?...Like a real bedtime story! That may have also been a good idea that, again, will answer questions, and it may have provided more depth to the characters since he just needs to talk about them every now and then.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on December 19, 2007, 10:03:45 AM
Yea, some notes would be helpful, I need to go back and reread that book about him and the Lady In The Water process, by Michael Bamberger ( I think I spelled his name right).  That was an interesting book.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: springheeledjack on December 27, 2007, 11:39:58 PM
The thing about Lady in the Water is that it is a film that takes a chance in modern day.  It is complex and tells many stories, and it is the kind of story that speaks to the heart.  It is about hope and working together, and those are ideals that many people have come to cannot face without some sort of negative response:  it is sappy, sentimental, etc. and so people like to trash such things, because to acknowledge the truth and power of such a concept, movie, idea is to have to believe again.

So, I don't have any harsh words for people who don't like this movie...it is hard to get involved emotionally in a movie these days because people are used to amazing stunts, explosions, and 4 kills per minute.  It's hard to step out of that and settle in to a calm, quiet piece that is powerful, emotionally and spiritually.

I loved this movie (in case you hadn't guessed), and I think it is one that will be recognized further along in history for what it is.

Thanks for getting this one made!
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on December 28, 2007, 12:49:28 PM
Well said, and also some good points.  I am one of the few people out there who does not go for action in movies, one of the reasons why I did not like Transformers.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: afi_village on January 02, 2008, 09:14:26 PM
i agree with what people are saying about the concept of the film.  the ideas and messages are really strong and could have made for an amazing film.  but i think litw had serious execution problems, when most of the people who watch the movie don't even pick up on the meaning then there is some sort of problem there.

and no...i don't think i'm attracted to action/special effects movies.  the village is my favourite movie, so if anything litw had more special effects.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on January 03, 2008, 03:55:23 PM
Yea, it's too bad, some people just don't get it.  O well, I know I really like it.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: okokokok on February 04, 2008, 04:37:25 AM
Quote
i know it's late in the thread, but i just find this all really interesting and i think it's important not to just discount things people are saying because you don't agree with them.  puterart wrote a very well thought out review of the movie and backed up their reasons for disliking this film, which to me seems like a more valid and worthwhile post then writing pages of 'like, i love it, lol.'

did people even read those opinions?  i would like to hear peoples responses to this because quite frankly a lot of it did make sense.  i'm a die hard night fan, you should have seen my fangirl moment i had when i met rory culkin just because he was in signs.  i worship this director, but to be honest looking back on this film there were a lot of things that i really don't like.  i tried to ignore them or make dozens of excuses about why it's ok and it's original.  but it was just cause it was a night film.

afi_village, I did respond to puterart's review.  Did you read my response?  I addressed his opinions. My issue wasn't with how a person feels about a movie for themselves, but when they speak for an entire audience, that's quite annoying.  That person spoke for entire audience a few times, and not just the audience he saw it with, but anyone who saw the movie anywhere.  Otherwise, his grievances were legitimate, for himself.  Everyone reacts differently to what they see and hear, art or not, but specifically art.  He gave 3 instances of things he did not like: 

1. The general idea that the movie was not good concerning storyline and content.  "The story seemed flimsy" with examples.  The 1st example I wasn't clear on if he had a problem with characters becoming irrelevant after Cleveland realized what he had done wrong (as far as going by what the critic was telling him about who is what in a story), or if he was bothered by the quickness of Cleveland's revelation.  If it's the former, well that seems to be one of the themes of the film.  The idea I think is he shouldn't have blindly listened to an unimaginative jerk of a critic who only knows how to categorize things one way...and he critiques art, nice.  If it's the latter, well puterarts personal opinion would be that it was just made up as an easy way out.  Didn't come across that way to me.  So, difference of opinion.
The 2nd example was "The kid misreading the cereal box seemed like an easy way out of a story falling apart".  If he thinks that Cleveland being the "healer" was an easy way out, there is no argument that would suffice.  Clevelands whole character is about being a healer from frame one.  And if he doesn't like that Cleveland wasn't identified as the healer initially, well I'm guessing the writing situation there is that Cleveland had to be reluctant to be the healer and it works better that he submits to his true calling at that moment then at any other time in the movie.  I think it works well.

2.The critic being killed.  You like it or you don't.  It's like anything. What puterart said about the critic character is true, but it's not just about being a close minded know it all film critic, it's about being close minded, dispassionate, and just plain unimaginative.   And technically I don't think he stepped outside the movie when he started talking about what was going to happen, I think he was just talking out loud to calm himself and take control of the situation, which happens in movies.  It was much more dynamic (and funny to me) here though because he was going on and on and talking very specifically about things he sees in movies.  I loved it.  It's very common to kill off characters in stories(movies and literature) that are the vessels for negative themes and ideas.  I think it works here because this is a fantasy/fairytale sort of a movie.  I love the mixing of genres in this film.  It wasn't revolting to me at all.   

3.  That M Night cast himself as someone who writes something that would inspire someone to do great things.  This does not effect story line or content, but casting.  I addressed this before.  I love M Night in this role.  I wish he didn't play it though so other people didn't have such an issue with it. 

Also, I don't know how to respond to this:

Quote
what i want is some indisputable evidence as to why this film is a masterpiece, and since that seems like a very unlikely thing to happen i would like to hear some solid opinions.

Art is not quantifiable.  2+2 does not equal a masterpiece.  There is no such thing as indisputable evidence for why any piece of art is a masterpiece.  In the end it does not matter what other people think, only what you think.  If you don't like it, you don't like it.   But if somehow you like it because of what someone else says, then what does that mean?  Worse even, if you don't like it because what others say?  This movie was profoundly moving to me.  I was lost in it...right out of the gate with the cave drawing animation.  Where other people find weaknesses in this film, I find strengths.  I think every facet of the film, filmmaking wise, is great, not perfect, but great....writing, directing, acting, cinematography, everything.  What I liked most was the sense of community and hope in this film.  I love how everyone followed along this crazy idea out of a sense of community and appreciation of Cleveland and desire to believe in something.  I love Heeps character, it really drives the story for me.  I feel so much for him, even before I knew what happened to his family.  The fear in his voice when he thinks someone may be drowning in the pool at the beginning spoke volumes to me as far as character depth.  And when The Great Eatlon comes I'm just like, "I know they said this would happen, but I can't believe this is happening" and I actually believe.  And the ending is like the best ending of all time.  There is no more that needs to happen.  Story accomplished her mission and Cleveland is saved and restored.  So perfect. 

If this means anything,  I went to school for film.  I love all of M nights movies passionately, except for The Sixth Sense.  Aside from M Night  movies, here are some of my favorite movies...Magnolia, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Fight Club, The New World, Star Wars in general, Adaptation, The Thin Red Line, Moulin Rouge, Lord of the Rings, many more but I could say those are all at the top.....more recently Zodiac and There Will Be Blood were my favorites of this last year.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on February 04, 2008, 10:05:58 AM
Well said, I coudn't agree with you more, you took some of my very words out of my mouth.  Art is in the eye of the beholder, no there are a few standards you can hold it too, but not many.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: DILinator on February 12, 2008, 03:27:31 PM
I'm as big of an M.Night fan as there is, and he is definitely my favorite director to this day.  I pattern my own movies off of his in some ways, and love his maverick views about stupid film critics (snobs) and those who don't like his films just because they're HIS films. 

However, that being said, I did not at all like LITW, and when the movie ended, my wife (also a big fan) and I just looked at each other, and burst out laughing.  I can appreciate what M. Night was trying to do, and I'll never bash anybody for liking the film.  But I also won't accept the "you don't get it" argument from those that do.  I "get" what he was trying to do, and like I said, I can appreciate that he tried to put his vision out there.  It's too bad he got crucified for it, but thank goodness it didn't kill his career as some "haters" were hoping for.  However, at the end of the day (or rather, the end of the movie), I just didn't care for the film, and thought he was stretching the boundries of even sci-fi/fantasy credibility with some of the stuff he tried to portray.  That's not to demean those who liked it, but please don't be as obnoxious as all the M.Night haters who say everything he does is garbage, by saying people who don't like it must have missed something or don't "get it".  I've never met anybody personally who DID like the movie, and all these people are also fans of his earlier movies. 

Just because I'm a huge M.Night fan, doesn't mean I'm automatically giving everything he does a pass.  He slipped up in my opinion with LITW, but that doesn't mean I'm any less excited about The Happening.  Just something to consider....  (and it's certainly far from the worst movie ever... that would probably go to The Fountain!)
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Rulm on February 12, 2008, 03:34:59 PM
I completely agree with you! I think you summed-up what I have been trying to say for a long time. Though, I have to say, I don't know about The Fountain being the worst movie ever...My vote would go to House of the Dead...Now that's a train wreck.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: DILinator on February 12, 2008, 03:45:28 PM
I completely agree with you! I think you summed-up what I have been trying to say for a long time. Though, I have to say, I don't know about The Fountain being the worst movie ever...My vote would go to House of the Dead...Now that's a train wreck.

As I just posted in the thread here about The Fountain, as much as I dislike the movie (which is pretty strongly), I know it's not really the worst movie ever.  Almost any movie I've ever seen on MST3K would be worse, though maybe not as mind numbing (at least I'd laugh in those).  I'll make sure to avoid House of the Dead though now, so thanks for the heads up!  ;)
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: okokokok on February 12, 2008, 07:29:50 PM
I have never used the "you don't get it" excuse ever.  I hate that.  But something has to be said about when someone looks at something and they like it, and someone looks at the same exact thing and are confused or don't like it.  I'm not talking about something as whole as the movie, but specific elements or ideas that people like or don't like or whatever.  I am going to quote some examples of Rulms here because he was specific.

Quote
MANY questions left unanswered
Confusing moments (A kid reading "prophesies" off cereal boxes!!!???)
Laughable moments when not intended (Tree monkeys!?)

From my standpoint, any questions left unanswered have nothing to do with the story M Night was trying to tell.  How is that explainable?  How is it that the movie is completely fulfilled for me at the moment it ends, specifically the way and when it ends, and for someone else there are questions unanswered that have significance?  I won't say they didn't get it, never have, but what do you say to that?  The kid reading prophecies off of cereal boxes was not any more confusing to me than the fact that someone was a guardian or a healer.  Tree Monkeys laughable, but Eatlons and Narfs ok?  How do you explain that it is confusing to one person and not to another? I use these examples because they are specific to my point.   

Quote
Ending left me wondering if that was really it (ended abruptly)
No real "M. Night magic moment"

These 2 things are completely contradictory to me.  The ending is a magic moment to me!  How is this explainable?  Someone may get what a writer or director was trying to do, but what happens when that person is completely underwhelmed and/or confused, and someone else is deeply and profoundly affected?  Which one of those reactions does anyone think M Night was trying to evoke?  I am trying to spark a conversation about how people react to movies, and also about how they try to discuss how they feel about what they saw, which are 2 different things.  I'm hoping it is an ongoing conversation, and not any one reply to try and win some kind of argument, not that that has happened yet.

Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on February 13, 2008, 09:32:51 AM
Allright, okokokok, I need a bit to think about what you said.  DILanator, I think some people just do not get it, some of those people I have talked to, others do and still don't like it, which is fine.  I thought it was great but that is my PERSONAL opinion.  I liked The Fountain, and I think just about the worst movie ever is Napoleon Dynamite, now maybe that's because I never went to school, I'm homeschooled, but I still didn't like it.  There are some other horrible movies out there too, I just try not to remember them.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: DILinator on February 13, 2008, 10:52:48 AM
Allright, okokokok, I need a bit to think about what you said.  DILanator, I think some people just do not get it, some of those people I have talked to, others do and still don't like it, which is fine.  I thought it was great but that is my PERSONAL opinion.  I liked The Fountain, and I think just about the worst movie ever is Napoleon Dynamite, now maybe that's because I never went to school, I'm homeschooled, but I still didn't like it.  There are some other horrible movies out there too, I just try not to remember them.

A little off-topic, but you were/are homeschooled?  That's awesome!  I was homeschooled my entire K-12, and I wouldn't trade that in for anything!  I've been out of school for about 12 years now, but it was a good time, and a good education, and certainly has prepared me for the rest of my life very well.

Back on-topic, I think another problem I had with LITW is that it drifted too far into the Fantasy genre, of which I am not a fan.  Sci-fi, supernatural thriller, that's more my cup of tea, and that's why I like movies like Signs and The Village so much.  Even though they aren't really movies about aliens or monsters in the woods, they use that vehicle to tell their story, which I enjoy.  LITW definitely goes off on a more Fantasy path, and I just don't go for those movies much.  I liked the Lord of the Rigns movies only after some time, and I loathe The Neverending Story.  More like the Neverending nightmare! lol!  Obviously, you won't be seeing me in a theatre watching The Spiderwick Chronicles.  So that again goes back to personal preference, and I don't happen to like movies where we're supposed to accept things like kids reading prophecies off of cereal boxes.  That just doesn't wash in my book.  I must say as well, that I've haven't talked to anybody I know, who liked the movie either, and it didn't do too well at the box office, so clearly my take on the movie was not in the minority.

What seperates my view though from the common ones on places like the IMDB message boards (also not as the Shymalan "hater" boards), is that I can accept that some people enjoyed LITW, and that M.Night wasn't completely off his rocker to make the movie.  It was a bedtime story he told his neices and nephews (I believe that was the story), and he decided to make it into a movie.  It proved to have only fringe appeal, and for all intents and purposes flopped, and damaged his credibility with the mainstream production companies a little.  However, if some people liked the movie, like some of you here, then he did not waste his time on the movie.  It's no Signs or The Sixth Sense, but not every director hits it out of the park every time. 

As much as I didn't care for the movie a first time, I do think that I will watch it again at some point, and give it another chance to grab me.  Don't hold your breath on that happening, but at least I'm willing to give it another shot... unlike The Fountain!  :D 
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: okokokok on February 13, 2008, 01:04:52 PM
DILinator, I appreciate what you are saying.  My issues have never been about people not liking this movie, as I can understand many grievances people have with it, even if I don't agree with them. My biggest issue is with people not accepting that others could like this movie and then them seemingly trying to debunk that anyone could like this movie.  I do think that you not liking fantasy films as a genre is a huge factor in your opinion.  It doesn't make your opinion any less valid of course, but it always makes it more difficult to enjoy a movie, no matter how well it's made, if you don't like the genre. 

Quote
So that again goes back to personal preference, and I don't happen to like movies where we're supposed to accept things like kids reading prophecies off of cereal boxes.  That just doesn't wash in my book.  I must say as well, that I've haven't talked to anybody I know, who liked the movie either, and it didn't do too well at the box office, so clearly my take on the movie was not in the minority.
 

I don't know why this matters.  To say you don't like to accept this means you don't like to accept anything that is fantastical in any movie based in reality right?  Because the cereal box idea does fit into this story.  It's not anymore insane or expectful of M Night to have you accept a narf or an eatlon, right?  And that people you know didn't like this movie has no bearing I think, unless you are saying they disliked it for the same reasons maybe, because it is already well know that LITW did horribly at the box office and the majority of who saw it didn't like it.  I only know 5 people that saw this movie personally, and 2 liked it, and 3 loved it nearly as much as I, but where does that get us.  We know how the movie was generally accepted.

Quote
It's no Signs or The Sixth Sense, but not every director hits it out of the park every time.

Of course it couldn't have been, you don't like the fantasy film as a genre so how could you ever really like it in that way?  It seams he could never hit it out of the park with you in making a fantasy film.  Unless of course hitting it out of the park is only possible with critical success.  I wouldn't expect you to ever like it on multiple viewings because you stated, if I am understanding correctly, that you don't like that you are "supposed to accept things like kids reading prophecies off of cereal boxes".  Those story elements are not going to change.  It would be different if you didn't like the story structure or the pacing(and maybe you don't) because those are opinions that can change and hit you different with multiple viewings.  Does that make sense?
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on February 14, 2008, 09:36:49 AM
I think it makes sense okokokok.  We each have our own genre of ilm that we like.  Yes, some people just don't accept that other people could like, or in some cases dislike, Lady In The Water.  Some people can take a little fantasy, like DILinator, but not a lot, hence pushing him over the edge with the cereal box reading.  He might like it when he watches it again, or be like my brother, who say The Fountain with me and never like it no matter how many times he watches it again.  Still, some people I have talked said Lady In The Water grew on them the more times they watched it.  Slightly off topic DILinator, I am in 12th grade, and have been homeschooled for all my life, I really like it.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: DILinator on February 14, 2008, 02:04:19 PM
I guess my point about not being in the minority, is that while I can accept people liking the film, and everybody is entitled to their own personal preferences, I think the fact that a lot of people didn't like it, and not all for the same reasons as me is proof that it's not as strong of a movie as the others. 

Thing is, a lot of people didn't care for The Village either, and I loved it.  But the story meant something a little more to me, as I have experienced being in an environment with a "Village" mentality.  I am willing to condede, even though I really like it personally, that the movie was not as good as Signs, or even The Sixth Sense thematically. 

Being popular at the box office doesn't inherently mean it's a better movie than one that isn't.  There are a lot of factors that go into how well a movie fares at the box office.  However, it shows how accessible a movie is, and I think that is important.  While I can appreciate some "unique" films, and Shyamalan is good at making them, the fact that many of the viewers do not understand them is an indictment on the filmmaker, and in the end, the movie itself. 

It's like if I made up a language, and then spoke to you in it.  Some people would be facinated by the fact I made up a language, would accept it, and would delve into becoming a part of it and understanding it more.  We've seen things like this involving Klingon and Elvish.  However, the majority of you would not "get it", and would think it was senseless gibberish, and not a real language.  You would not accept that I had just made a "real" new language.  You would probably think me rather silly, as you should.  That's how LITW is to the majority of people.  It's not an easilly accessible movie, and it creates an entire world that doesn't exist, and doesn't fit into any known construct.  It's not a fantasy movie, because it focuses on normal, everyday people.  But yet it's clearly not real life, because narfs, and eatelons don't exist, and little kids don't read cereal boxes like prophetic newspapers.  Therefore, in order to accept and enjoy the movie, you have to buy into the "new language" that M.Night has created here.  Some of you have, and that's fine.  But the fact that many, including myself haven't, merely means we are not going to accept a new "made up language" as being legitimate storytelling. 

LITW is a great work of creativity on the part of Shyamalan, and I hand it to him for that.  It just wasn't meant for mass consumption, and I think deep down he knew it would not do well.  That's one of the reasons for the critic character in the film, because he knew they already were doubting him after The Village, and he knew they'd tear this film apart.  He doesn't care though, and threw it in their faces in fact with this movie, and the film critic character.  I love that aspect of the movie, as "film critics" opinions often aren't worth the paper they're written on!  M.Night is still my man, and people who like LITW are fine in my book.  I'll just never accept that those of us who dislike the film are somehow missing something, or wrong in our assessment of the movie as a stretch of credulity.  Sorry.  :( 

I'll still play with you guys if you'll still play with me though!  ;)   
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on February 15, 2008, 10:01:56 AM
See, I honestly think some people don't get Night's movies.  Others don't like them, and still other like, or in my case love them.  I really like Lady In The Water, it had an affect on me with the cinematography, the technical aspects of the film.  Yes, the story is far fetched, but that's what I like about it, it was a FAIRY TALE, people will go see enchanted and say, "oh, it's really good."  WHAT, cartoons coming to life, people running around New York City in medieval clothes and singing, bad witches.  People still love that.  As a movie Lady In The Water might be his worst, but I still think it is really good.  I think in America we've started to give up on the fantastical, and the incredulous, not that that is an entirely bad thing but we just don't accept it in life as much anymore.  I think in Asia it is much more commonplace, where people are more superstitious, in Lady In The Water there was a lot of Buddhism (is that the right religion) mixed in with the story.  That's what I thought. ;D
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: DILinator on February 15, 2008, 04:03:38 PM
There's something else that sets LITW apart from even normal characterization though, and accessibility, and honestly, I can't put my finger on it.  You mention Enchanted, which I liked a lot, and yet I didn't like LITW at all.  You look at fairy tales, and I think of a recent movie I saw on video, Stardust.  Wasn't a big fan of the movie, as that's just not my thing.  But I still liked it better than LITW.  Like I said, I can't put my finger on it, but there was just something about LITW that just didn't play with me, and with a lot of people.  It's certainly not a dislike of Shyamalan, as he's my fav!  But there was something about it, and it suffered in my opinion as a result.   
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on February 16, 2008, 01:22:55 PM
See, I'm the reverse.  There's something about Lady In The Water that I like, which I can't put my finger on.  It makes sense what you said DILinator.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: DILinator on February 16, 2008, 04:13:42 PM
I asked my wife about this earlier, to see if you could help me put my finger on it any better, and the main thing she pointed out was the "throwaway characters".  I really agreed, and I think this is especially surprising coming from Shyamalan, who is known for creating strong characters, and making character-driven movies.  The problem with LITW though, is that he created a story driven movie, and inserted these often-times strange and bizzare characters into the framework.  While I can see how he felt he was continuing in his character-driven tradition, the problem lies within characters who the viewer (at least my wife and I, and obviously numerous other) does not ever really feel a connection with.  There are so many at first, and then they try to get you invested in one group, only to then pull a switcheroo and tell you it's the other group.  All that to again agree with my wife about a chief problem being the characters.  Story and Cleveland Heep were not the problems in this movie.  They were both great.  But when M.Night tried to do too much with too many different characters, that's when things fell apart.  At least that's how I see it.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: okokokok on February 17, 2008, 12:51:03 AM
DILinator, agree a lot with what you said a few post back.  We are not far apart in thinking in my opinion in that we agree that our opinions about the movie aren't incorrect.  Some thoughts though:
 
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It's not a fantasy movie, because it focuses on normal, everyday people.  But yet it's clearly not real life, because narfs, and eatelons don't exist, and little kids don't read cereal boxes like prophetic newspapers.  Therefore, in order to accept and enjoy the movie, you have to buy into the "new language" that M.Night has created here.  Some of you have, and that's fine.  But the fact that many, including myself haven't, merely means we are not going to accept a new "made up language" as being legitimate storytelling.

This is a fantasy film.  It is is not ONLY a fantasy film, but it is a fantasy film.  Show me where it says that the fantasy genre can't focus on real people.  You seem to be stressing that you don't like the specifics about the movie when it is clear you have a general dislike for fantasy, as it seems to be the only thing that you have been specific about.  It looks to me like you only have an issue with the subject matter, as a opposed to the movie itself.  According to what you have written, a movie could never be considered "legitimate storytelling", or good, if it had things like narfs and eatlons or whatever fantasy element you want to put in there.  It sounds mildly elitist.  It's like you are using the fact that the majority don't like this movie to justify your lack of interest in fantasy.

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LITW is a great work of creativity on the part of Shyamalan, and I hand it to him for that.  It just wasn't meant for mass consumption, and I think deep down he knew it would not do well.  That's one of the reasons for the critic character in the film, because he knew they already were doubting him after The Village, and he knew they'd tear this film apart.  He doesn't care though, and threw it in their faces in fact with this movie, and the film critic character.  I love that aspect of the movie, as "film critics" opinions often aren't worth the paper they're written on!  M.Night is still my man, and people who like LITW are fine in my book.  I'll just never accept that those of us who dislike the film are somehow missing something, or wrong in our assessment of the movie as a stretch of credulity.  Sorry.

Firstly, I agree that you should never accept the idea that because you don't like the film you "don't get it".  That is a complete cop out to tell someone that's why they don't like a movie, or any art for that matter.

Secondly, you are starting to speak for people here.  You don't know that this is why he created the critic, though you are not alone in that theory.  It's one of the more popular ones I have heard.  But you state it like it's fact.  I have written this already, but is awfully common in stories to kill off a character who represents a negative idea or theme.  Example, in the book JAWS (not the movie, though I will reference the movie actors for clarity), Richard Dreyfuss' character sleeps with Roy Schieders wife.  Dreyfuss' character dies in the book.  The author said he killed him off basically because the character represented adultery.  It's the idea the character represents that dies.  I respect M Night too much as a filmmaker to think he would cook up this character, who is integral to the story, to be killed just in case the critics didn't like the movie.

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While I can see how he felt he was continuing in his character-driven tradition, the problem lies within characters who the viewer (at least my wife and I, and obviously numerous other) does not ever really feel a connection with.  There are so many at first, and then they try to get you invested in one group, only to then pull a switcheroo and tell you it's the other group.


Underdeveloped characters is a legitimate grievance.  I think that is the first specific thing you have said about not liking this movie that I have no problem with, even if I disagree.  That absolutely is a reason to think a movie is not good in my opinion.  However, you state it like it is the main problem most had with this film.  If you haven't noticed, I really don't mind when people don't like this movie, but I do mind the way people discuss their thoughts on a movie.  Until this point, the only real problem you seemed to have was with the fantasy elements.  And I can't stand to hear someone say this movie that I think is so amazing in so many ways, is not "legitimate storytelling" basically because it is a fantasy film.  And then to have that opinion be justified mostly on the legs of the majority not liking the film. 

In the end, how do you explain movies like 2001 and BladeRunner?  They were critically panned, and didn't connect with the majority of audiences.  So are they misses?  I am in no way comparing these 3 films, but rather how they were accepted on first release.  Of course, it's much easier to say positive things about BladeRunner and 2001 in retrospect considering the stature they have gained.  I am also not suggesting that LITW will be accepted any differently someday in the future than it is now.  Your post makes this topic even more interesting.  What the majority thinks of a movie seems to be the ultimate judge of a films credibility, which is why BladeRunner and 2001 are such perfect examples.

Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Vick on February 18, 2008, 12:06:15 PM
It's my Favorite Shyamalans's movie #2, when i look it in movie theater the surrounding reality  for me did not exist , I was  like in movie , this effect was only when i look The Village too, for music. The Last words:
"Thank you for you for saving my life"  - it genius
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on February 18, 2008, 02:55:37 PM
I agree with what okokokok says, even though I like Lady In The Water, his points are well made and thought out.  Films come down to what people like, but then some movies, even if disliked, are still well made, and deserve critical acclaim.  Others, though, are incredibly popular with the masses and are still good.  I think Lady In The Water was well made, even though most people didn't like it, I did, but you can't bash a film just because you didn't like the genre.  You can dislike a film, and maybe even bash it, but not an indiviual genre because you are already predetermined that you will not like it.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: DILinator on February 19, 2008, 09:49:12 AM
Ok, a few things need to be pointed out here, based on the past few posts....

First off, while I've admitted I'm not a big fan of the Fantasy genre, that doesn't mean there aren't movies in that genre that I have still liked... such as the LOTR movies (it just took a while).  Also, this being related to the fantay genre has not prejudiced me against the movie.  I gave it a fair shot, and it came up wanting in my opinion. 

The problem here is that it seems you want to discount a person's emotional reaction to a film based simply off of the watching experience as invalid without a "proper" argument to back up why.  Nobody who dislikes LITW has to explain or justify their beliefs if they simply watched it, tried to like it, and came away feeling like they wasted their time.  Now some of the "haters" simply disliked it, and other M.Night movies because they were his movies.  That's not an acceptable reason.  But if somebody gave it a fair shot, as I did, and came away unimpressed, I don't really need to enumerate a bunch of reasons why I didn't like it.  The result of watching the film was dislike, and that's sufficient. 

However, I've tried to explore my feelings further, and provide some reasons for why it probably did not "work" for me, and that's where things like character development and bizzare plot points come in.  I don't feel the need to "back up" my dislike for dislike for the movie with a bunch of reasons though, because the bottom line is at the movie of the movie it left an unfavorable impression.  That's not my fault, that's the films.  It's not a sin to dislike a movie, even a Shyamalan movie (with the exception of Signs!  ;) )

As for the whole populous approach to movie appraisal, I'm not saying that it's the only criterion to determine whether a movie is good or not.  However, I am saying that if you show a movie to 10 people, and 7 of them hate a movie, 1 thinks it's ok, 1 likes it, and 1 loves it, that the filmmaker probably didn't do a very good job, since the point (in my opinion) of making movies is to provide enjoyment for the viewers.  If I was the person showing the above film, I would have to humble myself, and realize that even though there were some people who did not hate the film, the great majority did, and that indicates a failure on my part.  Now there are certainly movies that are good that may not be popular, and movies that are popular that may not be good.  In my opinion, what is even "good" is really subjective to each viewer's personal taste.  So I'm not going to say LITW is a "bad movie" for everybody, because obviously some of you like it.  However, given the fact that the vast majority of people agree with my opinion on the movie, the onus to prove this opinion isn't on me, or anybody agreeing with me, but on everyone else who actually liked the movie.  Clearly, the movie had some deficiencies, otherwise so many people, including many Shyamalan fans (of which I know many), would not dislike the film.  I can accept that you like, or even love the film.  But you need to accept that myself, and those like me who disliked the film, are not wrong in our opinions, and are not "missing" anything.  And, that we don't need to justify that opinion to others who disagree in order for it to be an accurate and valid opinion. 

Regarding the critic character, I was simply stating that the character was representative of people that Shyamalan had already taken a dislike to, as they had him.  I'm a writer, and I know that we write from our own personal experience.  If Shyamalan had rosy relations with the critics, don't think he would have created the only negative character in his movie, and the only character who died, as a movie critic.  I highly doubt in the bedtime story he told to the kids before it evolved into this movie, that there was even a movie critic character.  That character was added to make a statement, and honestly, I agree with the statement.  Killing off the movie critic was arguably the best part of the movie!  ;D

As for what classifies as "legitimate storytelling", I guess that's up for debate.  Far be it from me to pontificate that my opinion on the matter is the only valid one.  Pointing out that my opinion is in the majority though does lend credence to it's veracity, as it's far more likely that the majority is right about the movie, then that they are wrong.  That's just simple logistics.  But again, I am a firm believer in movies being subjective in nature, and thereby open to differing opinions, which aren't really "wrong" in and of themselves. 
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on February 19, 2008, 10:02:13 AM
Allright, that's cool, I understand and agree with most of what you said.  You didn't like Lady In The Water, I did, we differ, that's allright.  Sorry about assuming that you didn't give Lady In The Water a chance.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: okokokok on February 19, 2008, 06:27:15 PM
In response to DILanator  ( It's long so I don't wish it upon any to have to read this ridiculous post, but I hope you do DILanator because I'd like you to understand what I am saying.

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The problem here is that it seems you want to discount a person's emotional reaction to a film based simply off of the watching experience as invalid without a "proper" argument to back up why.  Nobody who dislikes LITW has to explain or justify their beliefs if they simply watched it, tried to like it, and came away feeling like they wasted their time.

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However, I've tried to explore my feelings further, and provide some reasons for why it probably did not "work" for me, and that's where things like character development and bizzare plot points come in.  I don't feel the need to "back up" my dislike for dislike for the movie with a bunch of reasons though, because the bottom line is at the movie of the movie it left an unfavorable impression.  That's not my fault, that's the films.  It's not a sin to dislike a movie, even a Shyamalan movie (with the exception of Signs!  Wink )"


How many times must I stress I don't mind if people don't like this movie?  I must be doing a horrible job of expressing that!

If we are to be discussing a movie in such a thought provocative manner, I feel YOU do need to have more specific reasons.  If you had come in and said "This movie is lame" and that's it, I wouldn't expect much from that person as far specifics about why they don't like the movie.  I probably wouldn't care.  But you have come in here apparently seeking to have a thoughtful discussion on this movie (which I like whether you hate the movie or not) and have made some bold statements about the quality of this film.  So I don't think I can be blamed for expecting someone to make more specific points then you have made, considering the manner and subject of your posts.  Now if you just wanted to come in and make these bold claims and not discuss the movie, ok then.  But it seems like you wanted to discuss them.

I did acknowledge your character developement issue, so that we are clear.  Not because it was valid, but because it was an actual point.  My point was, the overwhelming majority of you complaints in your initial few posts seem to stem from your lack of interest in the genre (example follows), and the only example of your interest in the genre comes from the most universally praised and accepted film(s) of the genre.  Also, you weren't just discussing your response to the film, you were then talking about all the other people who didn't like it either, which shouldn't have anything to do with your "emotional response" to the film. 

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So that again goes back to personal preference, and I don't happen to like movies where we're supposed to accept things like kids reading prophecies off of cereal boxes.  That just doesn't wash in my book.  I must say as well, that I've haven't talked to anybody I know, who liked the movie either, and it didn't do too well at the box office, so clearly my take on the movie was not in the minority.
 




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Regarding the critic character, I was simply stating that the character was representative of people that Shyamalan had already taken a dislike to, as they had him.  I'm a writer, and I know that we write from our own personal experience.  If Shyamalan had rosy relations with the critics, don't think he would have created the only negative character in his movie, and the only character who died, as a movie critic.  I highly doubt in the bedtime story he told to the kids before it evolved into this movie, that there was even a movie critic character.  That character was added to make a statement, and honestly, I agree with the statement.  Killing off the movie critic was arguably the best part of the movie!  Grin

(All that really matters in this next paragraph is my first sentence)
My issue was only with you suggesting, in a FACTUAL manner, that he PARTIALLY did it because he thought critics would hate THIS movie.  I absolutely agree that he was making a statement with that character, and that it probably does have roots in the fact that critics have given him a hard time in the PAST.  But I don't think that is the sole purpose, and not even the main purpose.  I think, though I am not sure, that the character first and foremost is some one that is to lead people astray.  In this movie, it would be people led astray from their true calling.   He is integral to what happens in the movie.  A major theme in the film, just as it is in unbreakable, is becoming who you are...finding your place in the world, despite what people are telling you about yourself.  It's not like he introduced a character as a film critic, and the next time you see him he dies or something.  That would be quite different to me.   I am also a writer and filmmaker, and it's intersting that we state that fact as a something that somehow backs up our opinion, yet our opinion is different!

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However, given the fact that the vast majority of people agree with my opinion on the movie, the onus to prove this opinion isn't on me, or anybody agreeing with me, but on everyone else who actually liked the movie.  Clearly, the movie had some deficiencies, otherwise so many people, including many Shyamalan fans (of which I know many), would not dislike the film.  I can accept that you like, or even love the film.  But you need to accept that myself, and those like me who disliked the film, are not wrong in our opinions, and are not "missing" anything.  And, that we don't need to justify that opinion to others who disagree in order for it to be an accurate and valid opinion.

Firstly, I never said the movie didn't have defincies.  Don't confuse me with someone who thinks there has ever been a perfect movie made (besides Raiders of the Lost Ark that is).  This goes back to an original point.  You don't have to prove your opinion at all.  But It seems as though you wanted to discuss this movie and you made some bold claims, so I was under the impression you would want  to elaborate more specifically than I thought you originally had.  Did I misread that? You absolutely don't need to justify your opinion, I just got the impression you wanted to discuss your comments with more than just the fact that, like you, the majority doesn't like it, and that you don't like almost any fantasy films, with the exception of the most popular and critically acclaimed of all time.  Of course, I acknowledge that you eventually gave some real examples of things that you think are poorly done, and I can't argue with what you said.  Not because they were valid points or anything like that, but because the DISCUSSION became valid because it wasn't just someone not liking fantasy as a genre.   I can argue that I think the things you were saying about the film in earlier posts were annoying because you literally were only commenting on the fantasy aspects while noting you thought this was not "legitimate storytelling".  Please see that's what I am arguing.  Look at your first few posts.  I am the last person who would ever think there that someone is correct or incorrect in their appraisal of a piece of art. 

You still didn't answer my BladeRunner and 2001 question.  But, according to what you have written in the past, we should know that you would have considered those movies failures and misses, up until the acclaim started years or decades later. 

Also, please don't lump multiple peoples opinions or posts together as though they are coming from the  same person.  I think it discredits both me and Mr. Glass when you respond as though we are saying the same thing, which we aren't.  I am most specifically talking about the idea of not liking something because "you don't get it", which you and I COMPLETELY agree on.



Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on February 19, 2008, 09:29:24 PM
Yes, if you have specific questions, or dislikes about Lady In The Water I would love to answer them.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: DILinator on February 20, 2008, 09:53:48 AM
okokokok, I think we're passing each other like ships in the night, because I feel like I've made my points, made them clear, given rationale, and justified everything I've said multiple times in my posts here.  So I'm not sure what more you're looking for from me, and maybe not anything.  We can agree to disagree about the film.  You read what I write and don't see it.  I read what you write, and don't see it.  So there we are.  I don't need to prove my point to believe that how I feel is right, and I'm sure you feel the same way.  So I guess we should just leave it at that. 

One thing though:  I don't feel I've made bold statements, if the majority of people agree with me.  I think the bold statements are made by people supporting a movie that the vast majority of viewers didn't like.  That's always been my point.  If you can accept you're part of the fringe group that liked LITW, then that's great.  I acknowledge anybody is entitled to watch any film, and some films speak to some more than others.  I know that The Village certainly meant more to me than some people, as it was not a terribly popular movie, but it meant something special to me. 

As for 2001 and Blade Runner, I don't care for either movie, and don't know hardly anybody who does either.  If they were panned when they came out it was for good reason!  If they've come to acclaim in more recent years, it's due to the trending of critics to like artsy fartsty stuff for lack of a better word.  These are probably the same people who think No Country for Old Men is actually a good movie in it's resolution.  I'm sorry if you like those films, but again we'll have to disagree there. 

I am not one who is "into" arguing or debating online, so I'm pretty much done with this thread.  I've stated my case, stated it pretty well in my opinon, and now will focus on the rest of the M.Night universe that we agree on, rather than the one movie we don't.  I do think I'll give LITW another shot sometime, just out of respect to Shyamalan, and to make sure I'm not missing something.  I hope that this can be an amicable conclusion to the matter, as I'm not looking to pick fights or make enemies right off the bat here.  See you elsewhere on the forums! 
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: okokokok on February 20, 2008, 01:28:20 PM
DILinator:

Fair Enough.  But this is not, and never was, about whether we like or don't like the movie.  I just don't appreciate the idea of walking into a situation, saying whatever you want, and then expect to just walk away and not be held accountable for it is all.  In any situation really.  To put something out into the world, say whatever you want to whoever, and then think it's ok to just walk away. Fine. That is what you are apparently ok with.  Even though you EVENTUALLY made some actual critical points AFTER this whole discussion started, you would rather not have to.  That is what we were discussing, it was never about the movie.  Also, we are discussing that to you (it is very evident in your posts as it is your most common firing point) the most important credential (not the only credential) in whether a movie is good or "legitimate storytelling" is the consensus of the majority, or how far the consensus strays from the majority.

To me, It is not bold to love a movie and to discuss why you love it, regardless of how many don't like it.  However, in general, to say a movie is not "legitimate storytelling" is an ENORMOUSLY bold statement.  It's not wrong, or incorrect, or not valid, but it is bold.  It becomes even bolder when you back up your very a specific assessment as though THAT specific assessment is why the majority didn't like it, when they may have a host of different reasons for not appreciating the movie.  Speaking for people is quite bold in my opinion.  This is what we were discussing.

I personally have enjoyed the discussion and have no ill-will towards you.  I only wish more people were involved in this discussion as I think the questions that came of it are really interesting concerning film/art and how it's perceived, accepted and discussed.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: DILinator on February 20, 2008, 04:27:46 PM
DILinator:

Fair Enough.  But this is not, and never was, about whether we like or don't like the movie.  I just don't appreciate the idea of walking into a situation, saying whatever you want, and then expect to just walk away and not be held accountable for it is all.  In any situation really.  To put something out into the world, say whatever you want to whoever, and then think it's ok to just walk away. Fine. That is what you are apparently ok with.  Even though you EVENTUALLY made some actual critical points AFTER this whole discussion started, you would rather not have to.  That is what we were discussing, it was never about the movie.  Also, we are discussing that to you (it is very evident in your posts as it is your most common firing point) the most important credential (not the only credential) in whether a movie is good or "legitimate storytelling" is the consensus of the majority, or how far the consensus strays from the majority.

I guess we differ as to what is "an actual critical point".  I didn't just come in, say, "This movie is crap", and walk out, as is common amongst those who have no real substance to their stance.  I came in, stated a divergent opinion to the normative in the thread, and then tried to give an olive branch to thos who disagree so as to keep the peace.  So I really disagree with your entire assessment of my part in this, as stated above.  Maybe that's how you perceive it, but that's certainly not how it went down.  I too don't condone people bashing movies without any real purpose other than being a troll. 

As for my infamous comment about "legitimate storytelling", I wasn't stating the reason for that being majority rules, just that the general dislike for the movie would seem to back that point up.  I was referring more to the entire contrived plot and characters in the movie.  However, backing down from that statement some, I would say that anybody can create any story, and have it be "leigtimate storytelling".  As you've mentioned, it's a Fantasy movie, and in that genre you can pretty much create anything your mind can conceive, and who's to say whether that's legitimate or not.  Make it up, throw it out there, and if people buy it, good for you.  If they don't, then you'll be criticized for it as Shyamalan has for LITW.  Sure, some people liked it, as a number of you here do.  However, within my large circle of friends, co-workers, and acquaintances, I've met two kinds of people: those who have seen the movie, and didn't like it... strongly! And those who haven't seen it because they thought it looked dumb to begin with.  Why, just today I had the LITW soundtrack at my desk, and when a co-worker came up and saw it he said "Boy!  That movie was awful!", not even knowing my take on it. 

My point all along has been the same: good for you if you liked it, and I won't criticize you and expect you to defend why you like it.  However, there's a reason it's been so universally disliked, and it boils down to the fact that in most people's opinion, it's a flawed movie.  Whatever the reason, and regardless of whether you accept those reasons or not, that's just how most people feel.  As an artist myself, if so many people disliked a creation of mine, I would be foolish not to take a long, hard look at what I made, and maybe humble myself to realize that I made a mistake.  As that same co-worker I mentioned earlier said to me later in our conversation (I was hyping up The Happening to him), "Shyamalan is a Home Run hitter... either he hits it out of the park, or strikes out badly." 

We as avid Shyamalan fans need to take a step back at times, and realize that as much as we love his works (for the most part at least), we may be looking at them through "M.Night" colored glasses at times, and miss things that others see and dislike.  Just a thought....     


To me, It is not bold to love a movie and to discuss why you love it, regardless of how many don't like it.  However, in general, to say a movie is not "legitimate storytelling" is an ENORMOUSLY bold statement.  It's not wrong, or incorrect, or not valid, but it is bold.  It becomes even bolder when you back up your very a specific assessment as though THAT specific assessment is why the majority didn't like it, when they may have a host of different reasons for not appreciating the movie.  Speaking for people is quite bold in my opinion.  This is what we were discussing.

I refuted above the notion that my statement was solely based on the majority not liking it.  As for the statement itself, I agree that it was a bold statement, and have since backed down from saying it so strongly, as stated above.  However, speaking for people who have: spoken to me personally, spoken on numurous message boards on the internet, spoken through tons of polls which rate the movie low, and spoken by a lackluster box office that didn't even break even before DVD sales, is not that bold of a move in my opinion.  The people have spoken loud and clear, in many different forms, and I'm just repeating their stance.  Not really all that bold.  But I give you the prior statement I'd made about "legitimate storytelling", which I now retract, fair enough?   

I personally have enjoyed the discussion and have no ill-will towards you.  I only wish more people were involved in this discussion as I think the questions that came of it are really interesting concerning film/art and how it's perceived, accepted and discussed.

I agree, and also concede that my opinions about film/art are not always mainstream.  I despise those that I call "film snobs", which run amok over at the IMDB, and their whole elitest view of movies, and those that disagree with them.  As a filmmaker myself, my number one concern will always be to provide enjoyment to others viewing my works, as I feel anything else is a selfish motive.  Sure, you can't please everybody, but as long as most people enjoy what I do, I will continue to do it!  Now, since I don't agree with the sentiments of the title of this thread, I'm not going to continue posting in it, and keeping it active at the top of the forum.  Not my favorite movie, but certainly not the worst ever!   
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on February 21, 2008, 09:47:32 AM
Allright, I guess I'll get one last statement in.  I think that art is in the eye of the beholder, but there is a difference between art, and quality film.  I know my friends and family agree that Night puts out films with good quality, cinematography, that sort of thing.  Where we dissagree is whether he creates art and good stories.  That is where personal opinion comes in, I think it is art, and a great story, but others in my family don't.  I think for the most part, art is starting to slip away in Hollywood, that's why there are so many action films, which is fine, they run a business so they put out what the public wants.  America has become somewhat of a shallow culture, not wanting to study anything deep, or view, or consider stuff that takes time to think about.  Art though, is supposed to entertain, so if people are entertained by action films, or films that have little or no depth, then let them.  I prefer to study things and view things that make me think.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: swiveltam on March 25, 2008, 10:20:08 AM
This movie is so so bad.  It makes no sense.  Poor acting, poor writing, just plain poor.  It was like M Night watched 20 movies the night before he wrote it and then just randomly copied that stuff he watched into this plot.  

It really says something when the audience of your film breaks out laughing at parts that were meant to be serious.  That happened 7 times at the theater i was at.  Starting with that cheesy opening and ending with the evil lawn monkeys killing the lawn dog.  The eagle reminded me of the eagel on the colbeirt report.  M night sucks at acting too.  I want a refund or atleast a promise to make no more movies.    

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy this movie and it's interesting that you share your opinion. I will have to respectfully disagree. I'm not a die-hard M. Night fan, and I've NEVER seen "The Sixth Sense" or "Unbreakable."

I LOVED this movie on so many levels and although I don't NEED to defend my tastes, perhaps their were a lot of sublteties that this movie had, that passed by you?  I LOVED what Mr_Glass.1 said and agree whole-heartedly. I thought this movie was SOOOO artful and so well-crafted and the characters so interesting and varied. I LOVE every single inch of this movie and wouldn't change a thing. My children and I have watched it over 7 times. It is just what a good folk-lore fairy tale, bed-time story should be and more.

Perhaps you are using the wrong yard-stick to measure this film. I veiw this film from an indy/family movie perspective, much like "The Secret of Roan Inish," which is another similar type story.

Anyway, it's always nice to have a "pleasant" (and I emphasize PLEASANT) discussion on why you did or did not like something. It is also nice to find this forum and others that recognize M. Night's originality and artistic vision. Keep 'em coming Mr. Shyalaman!
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on March 26, 2008, 08:57:22 AM
I agree with you swiveltam.  I've also watched it a bunch, and I always like the feeling I get during and after watching it.  It is a bedtime story, simple, but layered entertainment.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: DILinator on March 26, 2008, 10:01:23 AM
As sombody who is a filmmaker myself (as many others here are or aspire to be), I definitely look at film as an art, and something that relies heavilly on opinions to define what is good and bad.  However, even from an artsy point of view, I thought that LITW failed on a number of levels, and just comes off as a failed fantasy story.  I don't think it was strong in the fantasy department, and the reality department wasn't there either, leaving it with nothing.  I think the movie and premise started off with potential, but progressively bogged down and fizzled.  I described it best in the other thread:  LITW is a cult film, and will never have a large following because it's not very easilly accessible, even from an artsy standpoint.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on March 26, 2008, 10:54:26 AM
That makes sense DILinator.  I think it is a cerebral film, it connects with some people, and with most other people is just doesn't.  You are right, it will only ever have a cult following, and I understand what you are saying about it not being easily accessible, that definately makes sense.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: DILinator on March 26, 2008, 03:26:38 PM
And to further clarify what I'm saying, I just wanted to point out that the same film can strike two different people very differently.  While one intelligent person may look at LITW and find it cerebral, another just as intelligent person can look at it and find it mind-numbing.  It doesn't necessarily mean either is wrong in their perspective on it.  I just want to make it clear though that plenty of people who love "cerebral" thinking-man's movies, also find LITW horrible.  So it's not cut and dried one way or another.  That's why I think describing it as a "cult" film is best.  Because to the masses, explaining why you like it won't change the fact that a lot of people hated it.  Getting back to your Star Wars anology you used elsewhere, as good as many people find Star Wars, there are some who hate it.  Go figure, but it is a cult-ish film, as many in the sci-fi (and fantasy, which is what I'd label LITW) are.  They're just not going to resonate with everybody. 
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: okokokok on March 27, 2008, 04:51:42 AM
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I think it is a cerebral film, it connects with some people, and with most other people is just doesn't.  You are right, it will only ever have a cult following, and I understand what you are saying about it not being easily accessible, that definately makes sense.

I happen to feel exactly the opposite.  I don't think describing a movie as "cerebral" has anything to do with being intelligent, but rather it specifies that someone must think their way through the movie.  In that respect, I don't think Lady in the Water is something you have to think your way through, but rather something that you have to feel your way through.  I never understood why people talk about about  "turning off you brain" to enjoy a movie as if that is an insult.  There is far too much unnecessary thinking and not enough feeling going on when it comes to art, in my opinion.  That is both the fault of movie-goers, filmmakers, and the American culture in my opinion.  I bring up culture only because I know the genre of magical realism isn't as big in the states as it is in other parts of the world.  And it's interesting because I have heard many people who have problems with certain aspects of this film that happen to be staples of magical realism.  Kind of like criticizing a comedy for trying to be funny.

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LITW is a cult film, and will never have a large following because it's not very easily accessible, even from an artsy standpoint.
I don't know why it is any less accessible than The Lord of the Rings, or Edward Scissorhands, or Star Wars, or Harry Potter, or The Wizard of OZ, or any fantasy film.  Can you explain why you think that is?

And I have a feeling this movie will have a much larger following then what is suggested by how much it made in it's initial release.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on March 27, 2008, 08:52:25 AM
I think I was using the word "cerebral" incorrectly.  I meant it to be something that makes you feel much more then another film, gets you to feel empathy for characters,, in particular, the gloaming effect from the lighting.  I partially agree with you okokokok, but I feel like there are to many films where they want you to just accept what is going on without thinking about, I feel that is true especially in slasher films. 
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: DILinator on March 27, 2008, 12:18:18 PM
Quote
LITW is a cult film, and will never have a large following because it's not very easily accessible, even from an artsy standpoint.
I don't know why it is any less accessible than The Lord of the Rings, or Edward Scissorhands, or Star Wars, or Harry Potter, or The Wizard of OZ, or any fantasy film.  Can you explain why you think that is?

And I have a feeling this movie will have a much larger following then what is suggested by how much it made in it's initial release.

First off, I think the saying "the proof is in the pudding" applies here.  At least with the LOTR or Harry Potter movies (which already had an established fan-base from their literary roots), and Star Wars movies, they were clearly accepted on a much larger level relatively easilly.  Honestly, Edward Scissorhands is a movie that is more comperable to LITW than any of the other ones mentioned, and it is also one that receives mixed reviews due to it's less-accessible nature.  I've already addressed specific problems I thought LITW had, so I won't regurgitate those here.  But as for why I think LITW is less accessible, I think the reality of how it's been received speaks to that quite clearly.  It's not hyperbole to say that everybody I've spoken to who's seen the movie dislikes it, most pretty strongly. Whether the movie had potential or not, or whether there's some greater story here that's being muddied is irrelevant when discussing the movie's presentation and reception.  It doesn't present itself well, the story is not easilly accessible to the majority of it's viewers, and as a result, the film suffers.  That's just simple observation of the reaction to the film.  It's the filmmaker's job to make sure his movies are clear, concise, and understandable, and in LITW's case, I believe Shyamalan failed to do that, dooming the movie.

As for this much larger following that's coming, I just don't see it.  Not when there is such unilateral disdain for the movie from everybody I've come into contact with and mentioned the movie to, as well as those who haven't seen the movie, but have absolutely no desire to.  For those that enjoy the movie, feel free to continue enjoying it!  But don't expect popular opinion to "come around", because I have a very strong feeling based on simple observation and discussion with a fairly large sample size, that it's just not going to happen. 
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: swiveltam on March 27, 2008, 05:24:49 PM
I also think people are comparing apples to oranges. I think it would help if you defined what genre you think LITW fits into. I don't think you can compare it to LOTR which was much too violent and long and scary for younger children. I do think you CAN compare it to Edward Scissorhands, The first couple Harry Potters , "Whale Rider," and have any of you seen "The Secret of Roan Inish?" It very much fits that genre which is "Indy Family." For my family I search for things that I can enjoy and that the kids will enjoy and that has a different aspect than the rest of the the movies like "Free Willie" or "Underdog."

I think it may be that those that do not embrace the film expected it to be something it wasn't meant to be.

Also, I was wondering why you would not consider "Cult" films art? (or did I misunderstand your statement)?
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: okokokok on March 27, 2008, 06:44:02 PM
The reason I brought all those movies up is because they are all fantasy faire and I get the impression that the fantasy elements are what DIlinator is talking about when he labels it as inaccessible.  I could be wrong, but that is why I am asking.

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First off, I think the saying "the proof is in the pudding" applies here.  At least with the LOTR or Harry Potter movies (which already had an established fan-base from their literary roots), and Star Wars movies, they were clearly accepted on a much larger level relatively easilly.  Honestly, Edward Scissorhands is a movie that is more comperable to LITW than any of the other ones mentioned, and it is also one that receives mixed reviews due to it's less-accessible nature.
 

The question is WHY do you think this is the case?  Not "Hey, can you tell me how many people you have talked to who don't like this movie?"  We get it, you know a lot of people who didn't like it, and you've been on the internet and the majority of the people who saw this film didn't like it.  I am not saying that those movies aren't accessible, so there is no reason to point out how accessible they are to try and prove something.  The accessibility of those movies is a given, not a rebuttal.  The question is WHY do you think Lady in the Water inaccessible, as opposed to other fantasy type films that are, like Harry Potter or Star Wars?  Is the why because it was poorly made in your opinion, or because of the specific subject matter?  There is no reason to have to prove or label what the movie is any longer.  Where does that get anyone? What I'm interested in is why you think, not how many other people think something
And as far as Edward Scissorhands goes, that movies fan base by far overshadows it detractors, so I don't know how you are possibly comparing it's review status with Lady in the Water.  Go look at some movie sights and you'll see what people think about it Edward Scissorhands.(RottenTomatoes, IMDB, BOXOFFICEMOJO, are ones I looked at, but there are plenty others) it's not far behind The Sixth Sense on some and even ahead of it on RottenTomatoes.

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I've already addressed specific problems I thought LITW had, so I won't regurgitate those here.

What's strange about this one is that you call it regurgitating if you were to discuss your issues with the movie again.  But you freely regurgitate and continually drive home the fact that a lot of people didn't like this movie over and over.  It's in like every post.  You write about other people SO MUCH MORE then you talk about your own ideas and thoughts about the movie.  If you weren't talking about what other people thought about this movie, it seems like you would have little to say.  Honestly, go look at your posts.

Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on March 28, 2008, 08:22:58 AM
Allright, first of all, I think people are talking by each other.  The title of the thread is worst movie ever.  Are we talking about what the public thinks, or what we personally think.  I think we should start there to clear some things up.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: DILinator on March 29, 2008, 08:54:20 AM
I think you're right Mr.Glass, that we are simply talking by each other.  I've clearly made my point, repeatedly, but it's evidentially not hitting home or being understood by some.  I think what I'm stating is a clear point of fact: people on a VERY LARGE scale have a hard time liking or getting interested in LITW.  They have a hard time ACCESSING it's world, or buying into the story the movie's trying to tell.  All the people that dislike it, overwhelmingly so, is clear proof of that, and that's all I'm saying.  I don't think that point can be debated, and trying to refute fact is pretty foolish. There are plenty of movies I like that some would find inaccessible,  but that doesn't mean I have to think they're bad too.  I'm not telling anybody that because others don't like the movie, they shouldn't either.  But I am quick to defend those who dislike the movie from being labeled as the ones who are "missing something" when they watch the movie, because clearly, the movie is not very easily accessible.  I still have not labeled anybody who likes the movie in a negative way, nor will I, as I firmly believe everybody's entitled to their own opinion when it comes to movies.  But whether the movie is easily accessible or not isn't opinion, since clearly, the vast majority of people who watch it don't like it.   

For the record, I liked Edward Scissorhands decently enough. Not one of my favorite movies, but I thought it was better than LITW.  Based on your own post okokokok, evidentially a lot of people agree with me on that as well.... 
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: swiveltam on March 29, 2008, 10:37:54 AM
I'm stating is a clear point of fact: people on a VERY LARGE scale have a hard time liking or getting interested in LITW.  They have a hard time ACCESSING it's world, or buying into the story the movie's trying to tell.  All the people that dislike it, overwhelmingly so, is clear proof of that, and that's all I'm saying. I don't think that point can be debated, and trying to refute fact is pretty foolish.

Well than, call me a fool! I do not think that ticket and video sales are a true measure of whether something is "good" or "art." I would almost believe that something that is NOT easily and readily "accessible" would prove the opposite, that it IS art. Look at all the movies with high ticket sales that are horrible schlocky movies.

Again, I think you need to define your measuring stick. Are you comparing LITW to Blockbusters? Are you comparing it to Horror Flicks, are you comparing it to other Night movies? I find it in a different genre than his other movies. And for the record, this is MY opinion based not on what "critics" think or sales receipts, but on the other movies that I would put in this genre.

So, what all mighty genre do I put LITW in, you may ask......Indy/Fantasy/Children. Here is a list that I would put LITW with:

The Secret of Roan Inish
Stardust
Princess Bride
Willow
Ladyhawk
Labyrinth
Legned
Fairy Tale
Edward Scissorhands
Harry Potter
Spiderwick
The Seeker (the Dark is Rising)
THe Golden Compass
Ella Enchanted

(on a side note, I would put Miyasaki films in there even though they are Anime, they are so indepth in character, plot and originality)

If you compare LITW to these films it is VERY good and rises to the top of the heap. So, my question to you is what is your basis for comparison.

AND for my record, I am not a "fan" of Night's. I have seen only three of his films, "LITW," "Signs" and "The Villiage."
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on March 29, 2008, 12:08:23 PM
I think art is in the eye of the beholder, but there are some rules that apply to it.  It is not art neccesarily if people don't like it.  Also, art can be well liked by everybody, and it will still remain art.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: swiveltam on March 29, 2008, 12:45:15 PM
I have no argument with that. But just because "most" people find something inaccessable and it doesn't have mass appeal does not make it BAD either. I still would like to know the criteria one is using to judge LITW besides sales....
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: DILinator on March 29, 2008, 02:17:57 PM
Who said anything about LITW not being art???  I certainly didn't, so I don't know who you're arguing against! 

All film is art, and I've already established that it's my position that people are entitled to their own opinions of what is and isn't good "art".  You think LITW is, I don't, but those are just are individual opinions, and neither of us is absolutely wrong or right. 

However, if we're discussing whether the film is easily accessible, easy to get into, and interesting throughout, which I am, then it's a different story.  Lots of movies are not easily accessible, and artsy, and not very popular.  That doesn't automatically mean it's a bad movie.  It also doesn't mean it's automatically a "smart" movie though, and that the people who don't like it because it's not a "blockbuster" movie are the ones with the problem. 

Popularity, public opinion, and high quantities of feedback are good and accurate barometers of how easily accessible a movie is.  You can't deny that LITW had a terrible box office, got terrible critical reviews, has a terrible rating and is strongly denounced by most of the people on the IMDB, and that virtually everybody I've personally talked to (and believe me, that's quite a few) dislikes the movie.  Some people like it, and I say "good for you!".  But it's not a movie that most people find easy to like, or even accept as a coherent movie. 

You throw down a list of movies, and say those are what LITW should be compared to.  However, I say that even in that category the movies are very hit and miss.  The Princess Bride is a classic, and very well loved.  It's my wife's favorite movie.  However, she hated LITW.  So, just because one movie in that genre is accessible, and well liked, doesn't mean every other movie should be considered that way each well.  You have to take each movie on an individual basis and evaluate it.  Just like any other movie in any other genre.  In my estimation (and I would say popular opinion would bear this out as well), Edward Scissorhands and Harry Potter, and Ella Enchanted are not worse movies than LITW as well.  Stardust was maybe a little better in my opinion, though it's close.  I'll concede that movies like Willow and especially the repugnant Ladyhawke are worse, and not surprisingly, they were not met with much success either in the court of popular opinion.

I'm pretty much done with this circuitous discussion, but I'll finish with this:  Mass appeal does not necessarily dictate whether a movie is good or bad.  However, when a particular movie is so roundly decried by virtually everybody, of every movie interest, and even many people who LOVE the director's movies usually, there's something to it.  Where there's smoke, there's fire, as they say.  This is not just some artsy movie that can be a little hard to get into, and is therefore not really popular at the box office, or critically.  LITW is one of those rare movies that almost everybody can agree is bad, and that means that there is something the writer/director did wrong in the movie to make it so unilaterally unpopular.  Some people do like it, and that's why I referred to it as a cult film.  I'm not saying you shouldn't like it.  I am saying you shouldn't act like it's those who don't like it that are the ones "missing something", or on the fringe.  It'd be like saying you like peanut-butter and tomato sandwiches, and everybody else should to or they're missing something for not liking it.  If you like peanut-butter and tomato sandwiches, and LITW, good for you.  But don't act like it's something everybody else should have a taste for and appreciate.

For the record, I never use a film's popularity at the box office, or with the critics, to determine whether I like a movie or not.  I judge LITW on it's own merits, or lack thereof, and nothing external.  However, those things (box office, critics) can be good barometers of public opinion, and that in turn CAN make a statement about how well received, and thereby accessible a movie is. 
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on March 29, 2008, 04:38:05 PM
Allright, it's cool.  I understand what you are saying DILinator, and I think I've agreed.  There's no point in going around in circles talking about this, unless you want to get more in depth, like talking about specific aspects of the film.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: DILinator on March 29, 2008, 04:54:31 PM
I believe I've mentioned specific aspects of the film elsewhere, and that's beside the point I was trying to make this recent conversation anyway.  Maybe if I ever get around to watching it again, I can make a list for you all of all the things I thought were bad about it.  In the meantime, the simple fact that I watched it, and the end result was I disliked the movie, should be enough of an explanation from me.  I don't need to explain or justify why I didn't like it any more than you have to do so to justify your favorable impression of the movie.  I just accept that you all like the movie, and since I don't expect that you have to see it my way, I leave it at that.  Again, the only attitude that I fight against, is the one that asserts that those who dislike the movie are the ones who somehow missed something. 

I have this same fight with those who take that attitude towards movies like No Country for Old Men, The Big Lebowski, or any other movie where the ardent fans think it's far better than most people do, and act like they are somehow "enlightened" because of liking the movie.  It's that pompous attitude that I will crusade against, no matter what the movie.  I've actually defended those who like LITW against those arrogant people in the IMDB forums, even though I personally didn't like the movie.  But it's that elitist attitude that I fight, refute, and argue against.  I'm not saying every LITW fan here has that attitude, but it's certainly leaking from some of the people's arguments....   
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on March 29, 2008, 06:03:29 PM
Allright, sorry if that came out in my posts.  I definately agree that we shouldn't view ourselves as better or more enlightened, either you like it or you don't, that a matter of opinion.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: DILinator on March 29, 2008, 07:06:20 PM
Allright, sorry if that came out in my posts.  I definately agree that we shouldn't view ourselves as better or more enlightened, either you like it or you don't, that a matter of opinion.

Right on brother!  ;)
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: swiveltam on March 30, 2008, 11:01:30 AM
My arguement is NOT specifically with you, but the person who STARTED the thread. I am happy to acknowledge other opinions as being intelligent and elightened, albeit different than mine. But, to throw down a statement like, "The WORST movie ever. " I thought was too harsh and still hasn't been substantiated in my mind, although like you said, you don't HAVE to justify your reasons. I would just like to comprehend them beyond the sales (which I feel were in large part due to the horrible marketing). Anyway, I'm cool with agreeing to disagree. Thanks for the discussion.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: DILinator on March 30, 2008, 05:16:14 PM
My arguement is NOT specifically with you, but the person who STARTED the thread. I am happy to acknowledge other opinions as being intelligent and elightened, albeit different than mine. But, to throw down a statement like, "The WORST movie ever. " I thought was too harsh and still hasn't been substantiated in my mind, although like you said, you don't HAVE to justify your reasons. I would just like to comprehend them beyond the sales (which I feel were in large part due to the horrible marketing). Anyway, I'm cool with agreeing to disagree. Thanks for the discussion.

I mentioned it in my first post in this thread, but it bears mentioning again.  I too do not agree with the original poster.  This isn't even close to the worst movie ever.  I don't think it's a very good one in my opinion, but it's far from the worst movie ever.  Wouldn't mind seeing an MST3K version of it though....  ;)
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: okokokok on March 30, 2008, 11:29:46 PM
Quote
I think what I'm stating is a clear point of fact: people on a VERY LARGE scale have a hard time liking or getting interested in LITW.  They have a hard time ACCESSING it's world, or buying into the story the movie's trying to tell.  All the people that dislike it, overwhelmingly so, is clear proof of that, and that's all I'm saying.  I don't think that point can be debated, and trying to refute fact is pretty foolish.

I can't believe how insane this.  Why do you keep saying the same things over and over and over and over.   EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT YOU KEEP SAYING.  WE KNOW IT DID POORLY AT THE BOXOFFICE AND THAT THE MAJORITY DID NOT LIKE IT.  Why do you keep saying that in like every post?  No one has been debating that point accept you. If you never posted in this discussion, WE WOULD STILL ALREADY KNOW THAT THE MAJORITY DIDN'T LIKE IT. 

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For the record, I liked Edward Scissorhands decently enough. Not one of my favorite movies, but I thought it was better than LITW.  Based on your own post okokokok, evidentially a lot of people agree with me on that as well....

What does agreeing with you have anything to do with anything?  Are you trying to prove who is right or wrong?  Because why else would you say that?  And wether you like Edward Scissorhands has no bearing.  What does have bearing is it's accessibility, which is fairly well documented on the internet.  That is, it is very accessible, if popularity has anything to do with accessibility that is.  My point was that you somehow compared the reception of Edward Scissorhands to Lady in the Water, when in fact Edward Scissorhands is VERY popular both critically and audience-wise.  So the thing that might have been interesting to know is WHY WHY WHY WHY you think that is the case?  That is, If Edward Scissorhands is more accessible, which it must be as it is so popular(and it is), then why is that film more accessible?  Note the WHY?  No need in posting stats as an answer, I can look those up myself.  What I can't do is know why YOU think something.  But it doesn't matter, I don't wanna know.  Apparently you don't like to discuss your feelings about movies NEARLY as much as you like to discuss what others think of it.  It also seems like you are offended or feel like you're being persecuted if someone asks what you think about a movie.  I just like to discuss what and why people think what they think about movies, not what the majority says about the movie.  Now, clearly what the majority thinks about a movie means something in some conversations.  I couldn't agree more.  But how many times must that information be talked about in favor of someone's own personal thoughts about a movie?

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I believe I've mentioned specific aspects of the film elsewhere, and that's beside the point I was trying to make this recent conversation anyway.  Maybe if I ever get around to watching it again, I can make a list for you all of all the things I thought were bad about it. In the meantime, the simple fact that I watched it, and the end result was I disliked the movie, should be enough of an explanation from me.  I don't need to explain or justify why I didn't like it any more than you have to do so to justify your favorable impression of the movie.  I just accept that you all like the movie, and since I don't expect that you have to see it my way, I leave it at that.  Again, the only attitude that I fight against, is the one that asserts that those who dislike the movie are the ones who somehow missed something.

I don't know that anyone is saying you have to justify YOUR opinion of Lady in the Water.  But this is a discussion board, and people do like to discuss things. Why would you not say something like "I think I have mentioned how many people I know, as well as how many people on the internet, don't like this movie elsewhere...the simple fact that they saw it and disliked should be enough to suffice any more discussion about it".  What led you to the impression that people wanted to hear stats (and the same stats) over and over?  I don't think anyone has asked you once what the opinion of the majority is, and yet you talk about it CONSTANTLY.  So your message SEEMS to be that you feel you don't have to justify YOUR opinion about Lady in the Water, even though people have asked about it,  but you DO feel that you have to justify that majority doesn't like this movie, and that you and your friends are amongst the majority, even though no one asked about that.

For the most part, My recent interest/questions have been:  ( I am not asking or wanting an answer for any of this, just stating what I though might be interesting to talk about at one point in the past)

1. (To DILinator specifically, but to anyone who didn't like the movie specifically because of the fantasy elements) What don't you like about this movie, aside from the fact that you have said you GENERALLY don't care for fantasy as a genre?  (This was kinda answered WELL into our original discussion. And honestly, you started it by saying the problem you had with the film was something you couldn't put your finger on.  Then you only had something specific to say, that didn't have anything to do with something that was inherent in the genre of fantasy, when your wife discussed HER opinion with you, which then became yours because you agreed with her!)

2.  The idea of people looking at the same part or idea of a movie, and thinking or feeling the exact opposite thing.  How is that explained?  That's an interesting question to me.  I don't think there is a finite answer to it.  I don't think there is anything to "prove" in answering this question.  How many people don't like this movie is not an answer, but a reason for this question.

3. (To DILinator) Discussion about speaking for others and using other people's opinions as proof or justification for your own feelings, when proof or justification was never asked for. (But why you think the way you do was of interest, to me anyways)

There's other stuff, but, whatever. (I should have done that 2 lines in)

Seriously, I feel like a jerk for some of my posts, but my god, I am just sick of hearing about how many people don't like this movie as proof and justification and reasoning for everything.

Sorry if anyone actually read this crap.   
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on March 31, 2008, 08:45:41 AM
I actually read this crap as you call it, and I think some of your points are valid okokokok, but we need to define something.  Are we talking about the public's like, or dislike for the film.  I which case we know the public didn't like it.  Or our own personal opinions, in which DILinator, you do need to say something.  I think we are talking about personal opinions.  DILinator, what didn't you like about the film, the story, the cinematography, the acting.  Is there something that you can put your finger on which we can discuss.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: okokokok on March 31, 2008, 08:45:06 PM
Mr. Glass, I personally don't think he has to say anything.  But wouldn't you think he would want to?  He loves talking it seems, and talking about what other people think, but when asked anything specific about what he thinks about the film, he seems defensive and thinks he doesn't have to answer.  Of course, he totally doesn't have to answer at all(in my opinion).  But why doesn't he want to do you think?  It's like, he doesn't have to talk about what so many other people think either, but he does anyways! So much!  Why does it always find it's way back to that?  I just don't get it. Not to say that he hasn't shared any of his thoughts about things.  He TOTALLY has.  There was some interesting stuff, like when we were talking about fantasy and what the genre was and all that(I thought it was interesting anyways).  But that didn't last long, and a lot of it was based on how the majority saw this film.

Personally, I would love to start this whole thing over again, under the premise that everyone knows that this movie did horribly at the box office and that the majority doesn't like it. Then, actually talk about specific ideas and thoughts, without anyone feeling they have to prove anything, or label anything, ya know?  Maybe this format for discussion(message boards) has been part of the issue as new people join the discussion and maybe miss points that have been made by previous posters? or I dunno. Maybe I have just been in my own world or something and I am not listening to people.  If that's the case, then I am an idiot and I apologize to all for my ramblings and misunderstandings.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on April 01, 2008, 08:10:19 AM
Allright okokokok, let's try starting over.  Everybody hear knows that Lady In The Water did poorly at the box office, okay, that's said.  DILinator, can you state just one point about why you didn't like this film.  Just start small and simple, that way we can work through it.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: DILinator on April 01, 2008, 11:32:18 AM
I wouldn't have had a problem enumerating the numerous flaws I find with LITW, or the many problems I, as well as many others (because yes, it's relevant to the discussion) have with the film.  However, I will not be dictated to about what I should or shouldn't say here.  As such, I'm not going to "bark on command", and list any more specific reasons I thought it was a bad movie than what I already have.  I have actually mentioned various specifics in this, and other threads, so it's not like I haven't said anything in detail already.  I'm not really into arguing and debating things on internet message boards, and I'm sorry if that's what some here thrive off of, but that's not how I roll.  I came here for friendly discussion about M.Night, and his movies which I love, not try to debate why I don't like the one movie of his I think is bad.  For that reason, I am moving on from this discussion, and I don't care if anybody thinks I'm ducking giving a more detailed response.  As I said above, if this conversation was taken in the direction of specifics in a more gracious and less demanding way, I would have been happy to discuss further my reasons for disliking the movie.  However, that not being the case, I'm not inclined to do so, at least not right now.  This thread has turned negative enough as it is, and I'm not going to be drawn in any further, because that's not why I came here.


Allright okokokok, let's try starting over.  Everybody hear knows that Lady In The Water did poorly at the box office, okay, that's said.  DILinator, can you state just one point about why you didn't like this film.  Just start small and simple, that way we can work through it.


I'm not interested in "working through" anything, and don't think there's anything that needs to be worked through.  We have different opinions, and discussing them and arguing about them won't change that.  I can agree to disagree, and leave it at that.  However Mr. Glass, I appreciate that you have been very welcoming, and mean you no disrepsect.  Your efforts to be positive and conciliatory have been noted, and are appreciated.  Given that, since you ask for one point, I refer you to look around the LITW threads, for I've made a number of more specific points about the movie in various threads.  One such complaint that I know I mentioned before is the uninteresting characters in the film, and the fact that there were too many "main characters".  M.Night has always focused on a much smaller group of main characters, and they always were far more interesting and engaging than the "throwaway" lot he created for this film.  Cleveland Heep was a good start, and Story had promise.  However, after that, things went downhill in a hurry character-wise.  I also mentioned that this was one of my wife's main complaints when I asked her what she didn't like about it.  Now, obviously some of you have taken a liking to these characters.  Good for you.  But for me, and those I know that I've spoken to, the unlikable or dull characters were a big detractor in the movie.  With no connection felt to the characters, it's hard to get into a movie, especially one like LITW which is the kind of movie that relies on acceptance of the characters to really accept the movie and it's premise.  So out of respect for you, there is your one reason.  I assure you, there are many more, but I'm not jumping through that hoop just because somebody demands it of me.  I hope that we can all rally around that which we agree on (the rest of Shyamalan's films), and accept that LITW is just something we don't, and leave it at that.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: swiveltam on April 01, 2008, 11:46:43 AM
Hmmmmm, that's too bad I was hoping for a good dialogue of points and counterpoints and some fun spirited debating. Oh well.

I will say that although I really love this movie I am almost embarrassed by the scene where Mr. Heep acts like a child to hear the rest of the story. It doesn't make total sense to me, although I figure in a fantasy story, EVERYTHING doesn't have to make sense in that way and perhaps it's Night's way of reiterating that it IS a Bedtime story...... Actually, I do get it, I am still embarrassed for Mr. Heep.

Did anyone else have a problem with that scene?

Do you think Night wanted us to feel "embarrassed" for Mr. Heep?

Or was that just as I said, Night's way of driving home the point that THIS (LITW) is a simple bedtime story?
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: DILinator on April 01, 2008, 12:23:22 PM
Hmmmmm, that's too bad I was hoping for a good dialogue of points and counterpoints and some fun spirited debating. Oh well.

I guess this is where I don't see what the point is.  What would we be debating?  Whose opinion is right?  Which side really understands the art of filmmaking better?  Which person's gut reaction to the movie is accurate?  At the end of the "fun spirited debate", what is the outcome?  Having debated for the point of debating?  Like I said before, that's not something I'm interested in, and there's nothing wrong with that.  Some people are into that, I'm not.  Maybe if I thought it would actually accomplish anything, but I know it wouldn't, so I'll pass. 
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: swiveltam on April 01, 2008, 02:08:10 PM
Again, it's unfortunate that you feel that way, but that is certainly your choice.

I for one, and happy to have my opinion swayed and even dissect my preferences and determine if they are based on artistic merit or as you say a gut (emotional) reaction to a film. I find in doing these exercises and debating and arguing with others, I find more out about myself. Not only that, but I am often enlightened and educated in the process.

I cannot say that any of your arguments would cause me to throw out LITW and never watch it again, but they may have made me watch it next time with a more discerning eye, or from a totally different perspective I hadn't thought of.

I do wish the originator of this post would come back and post and explain. I'm hoping at least someone with comment on my recent questions and perhaps create an intelligent dialogue.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on April 02, 2008, 08:36:00 AM
Allright DILinator, see you around the site.  That's cool.  swiveltam, I agree, that scene is odd, but I always thought, Night likes using children and their innocence, Cleveland needed to become more innocent to be able to accept Story and her message.  That's what I thought.  :-\
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: okokokok on April 03, 2008, 04:06:43 AM
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Maybe if I thought it would actually accomplish anything, but I know it wouldn't, so I'll pass. 

I finally understand you better.  There must be a final outcome.  There must be something accomplished.  The act of discussing a film, or a book, or anything I guess, is not interesting or fulfilling for you.  Only a conclusive outcome, or possibility of one anyways, is worthwhile to you I guess.  Fair enough.

Quote
I will say that although I really love this movie I am almost embarrassed by the scene where Mr. Heep acts like a child to hear the rest of the story. It doesn't make total sense to me, although I figure in a fantasy story, EVERYTHING doesn't have to make sense in that way and perhaps it's Night's way of reiterating that it IS a Bedtime story...... Actually, I do get it, I am still embarrassed for Mr. Heep.

Did anyone else have a problem with that scene?

Do you think Night wanted us to feel "embarrassed" for Mr. Heep?

Or was that just as I said, Night's way of driving home the point that THIS (LITW) is a simple bedtime story?

I don't have a problem with that part of the film.  And I'm not embarrassed by it myself.  I personally think it's just an interesting and silly way to get her to tell him the rest of the story.  It is an interesting scene to talk about as well, as I think it is sort of a touchstone for the whole movie.  That is, in my opinion, Lady in the Water is a silly fairy tale (in the same way I consider E.T., The Princess Bride, and Edward Scissorhands silly fairy tales, which are all movies I love).  And by silly, I mean that they are playful and child-like in tone.  So silly would not be a negative attribute in the way I am using it.  (As a contrast, I think the Fisher King is similar to Lady in the Water in many ways, but it has a different tone.  So I don't think I would call The Fisher King silly, even though I consider it a fairy tale.) So, in my opinion, this scene is very silly and epitomizes the general tone of the film. 

Whether or not it makes sense?  It came across clear for me.  I think the grandmother needs some kind of cue to let her know that Cleveland is going to have the open-mindedness of a child, in order to hear the rest of the story, and this accomplishes that in an entertaining way I think.  Though, I do think think the idea of perspective is being pushed here possibly.  That is, maybe M Night is saying that the story(the movie) is more enjoyable if seen from a child's perspective?
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on April 03, 2008, 08:39:40 AM
Yes, that's what I was trying to say, just couldn't quite get it out in those words.  Thanks okokokok. ;D
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: swiveltam on April 03, 2008, 09:09:54 AM
Whether or not it makes sense?  It came across clear for me.  I think the grandmother needs some kind of cue to let her know that Cleveland is going to have the open-mindedness of a child, in order to hear the rest of the story, and this accomplishes that in an entertaining way I think.  Though, I do think think the idea of perspective is being pushed here possibly.  That is, maybe M Night is saying that the story(the movie) is more enjoyable if seen from a child's perspective?

Well said. Thank you for your opinion. I so forgot about "The Fisher King." Good call. I think I'll rent that movie again.

I do enjoy LITW and was trying to come up with something that I didn't like to help me understand someone's perspective of "worst movie ever."
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: DILinator on April 03, 2008, 10:50:06 AM
I do enjoy LITW and was trying to come up with something that I didn't like to help me understand someone's perspective of "worst movie ever."

I think the OP was half speaking in hyperbole, since obviously LITW is nowhere near the "worst movie ever", and half trolling, because why else would you come onto a Shyamalan fan site and make your one and only post an accusation of "worst movie ever".  I honestly wouldn't give it a second thought if I were you. 
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: okokokok on April 03, 2008, 02:36:10 PM
DILinator....It's funny because that's how I got involved in this thread in the first place, back in '06.  I thought it seemed suspicious that someone would take the time to register somewhere just to let everyone know how bad they thought a movie was.  I would never take the time to do something like that for a movie I didn't like, so that's why I thought that. 


Quote
I do enjoy LITW and was trying to come up with something that I didn't like to help me understand someone's perspective of "worst movie ever."

That's interesting.  I have done the same thing in the past but the problem for me is that I don't have any major things that I don't like with the film.  I only have little nitpicks about how maybe certain lines are delivered, or how some scenes come together and things like that.  If I could change something though, it would be for M Night NOT to have played the writer role in the film.  I really like him in this movie,  but I recall that many reviews I read seemed to list this as the biggest issue.  If another person playing that role would have made people maybe like this more, that would be worth it to me.  I want everyone to like this movie because of how much of an impact it had on me.

One of the things I don't like is the way Mr. Dury says "My God" when they are trying to figure out who can read the signs of what is happening, and he realizes it is his son.  It's just too cliche dramatic.  And I don't like how his son doesn't speak up before they try to heal story the first time, when he says "I read it wrong".  I'm guessing it ultimately adds more tension to the seen to have them try to save her and have nothing happen, but it ends up not working for me.  Anyone have any thoughts on that?
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: swiveltam on April 03, 2008, 07:54:27 PM
That's interesting.  I have done the same thing in the past but the problem for me is that I don't have any major things that I don't like with the film.  I only have little nitpicks about how maybe certain lines are delivered, or how some scenes come together and things like that.  If I could change something though, it would be for M Night NOT to have played the writer role in the film.  I really like him in this movie,  but I recall that many reviews I read seemed to list this as the biggest issue.  If another person playing that role would have made people maybe like this more, that would be worth it to me.  I want everyone to like this movie because of how much of an impact it had on me.

No WAY!!! I loved him in that role. Not being a Big "Night" fan, I didn't even know it was him. LOL. I just thought it was a cool looking guy that got the part and played it really well. When I found out it was the director, I actually like it more. Funny how people have such different persepctives. I think part of that is how you go into it. Like I had NO idea it was the director.

quote author=okokokok link=topic=675.msg18623#msg18623 date=1207251370]One of the things I don't like is the way Mr. Dury says "My God" when they are trying to figure out who can read the signs of what is happening, and he realizes it is his son.  It's just too cliche dramatic.  And I don't like how his son doesn't speak up before they try to heal story the first time, when he says "I read it wrong".  I'm guessing it ultimately adds more tension to the seen to have them try to save her and have nothing happen, but it ends up not working for me.  Anyone have any thoughts on that?
[/quote]

Hmmm, now that you mentioned it. Yup, that did bug me, too. Why didn't the sun speak up before. The son was interupting the dad when Mr. Heep was talking to him, so why wouldn't the son push the issue with his dad. I know my kids can be VERY tenacious.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on April 04, 2008, 08:49:01 AM
I don't know either, but I think overall there isn't much I would change.  Like okokokok said, I would pull Night from that part, even though I think he did a good job, and get someone else, because every review I read bashed him for that. 
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Ellemar on June 17, 2008, 12:03:14 AM
I was just talking about this today.
All people seem to want in a movie are cheap, stupid thrills, like the high speed car chase, the girl who always finds a way to take her clothes off, or the guy who gets kicked in the balls. You know, the low class stuff.

All I can say is, I'm sorry for people who can't appreciate beautiful movies. It's a crying shame, really.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Namaste on June 18, 2008, 11:51:21 PM
Hey, what's wrong with liking the grudge? I personally found it very frightening..there were 2 sort of matching good scenes in grudge 1 and 2..in the first the security camera scene and the second was the dark room scene; in both of them it was a staredown that just gets more and more intense and you dont know what's going to happen.
Another great scary movie is 1408 which is not only scary it is also very emotional and technically well-done. Also a movie almost noone has heard of called "They" was terrifying.
I love shyamalan films but i havent really found them to be scary in general (except the 6th sense, and the first time i watched the village when ivy is out in the woods with TWDSO)
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Lieutenantnike on June 19, 2008, 12:33:07 AM
7 pages of rebuttle, deaocamrith... I'm thinking the point has been made that you're just PLAIN WRONG!
Your taste in movie is what the Academy would call incredibly poor.

cry_wolf, The Ring, Jumper--a few of your favorite films, I assume...
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: swiveltam on June 19, 2008, 10:43:53 AM
Hey, what's wrong with liking the grudge? I personally found it very frightening..there were 2 sort of matching good scenes in grudge 1 and 2..in the first the security camera scene and the second was the dark room scene; in both of them it was a staredown that just gets more and more intense and you dont know what's going to happen.
Another great scary movie is 1408 which is not only scary it is also very emotional and technically well-done. Also a movie almost noone has heard of called "They" was terrifying.
I love shyamalan films but i havent really found them to be scary in general (except the 6th sense, and the first time i watched the village when ivy is out in the woods with TWDSO)

I totally check out 1408. I had forgotten I wanted to see that. I'm adding it to my Netflicks now. That said, I don't think the point of Night's movies are to be that kind of a thriller. I see him more of a folk lore, fairy tale kind of guy. I think if you went into his films with that in mind, you wouldn't compare it to movies like "The Grudge." I think the movie industry doesn't quite know what to do with him, so they lump him in the horror genre.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mille on June 23, 2008, 04:25:08 PM
I think the movie industry doesn't quite know what to do with him.

I am new here, and this is going to be a quick post, but I will be back later. :D

Lady in the Water is a brilliant movie, and I have seen it about ten times by now. However, I still can't pick my favorite Shyamalan movie, it's impossible!

I agree with you about the industry being unable to do something with Shyamalan. As for myself, I think he is an artist, and I can't see him having ordinary success among the audience just because he is not making these movies to please those who are avid for entertainment. These movies are for those who are avid for meaning. :)
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: GothMan on June 23, 2008, 05:19:57 PM
Worst movie ever? Best movie ever!  ;D
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: manojrules on July 12, 2008, 12:25:51 PM
I disagree, I saw it opening day with my dad, I had no idea it was an M. Night Shyamalan movie, I'd never heard of his movies, but after watching it, I was like, "Wow!" and then my dad told me that he had made a lot of other movies, and told me that M. Night was the man writing a book in the movie. And I just remembered thinking that there were all these amazing movies that I'd been missing out on, and then I saw the Sixth Sense and the rest of his movies and loved them, but I still love LITW just as much. I think the acting was great, the storyline was good, everything. A lot of people I think laughed and didn't like it because they expected a classic scary movie from him, while this one was meant to be a bedtime story, with some mystery thrown in. It's so original, it's not some classic disney fairytale that always has an inocent little person who gets lost or scared (wendy in peter pan, ends up in neverland, alice, who gets lost in wonderland, Snow White, who is scared of being killed and gets lost and finds 7 dwarves) it was completely original but it was like something for all ages, it was nothing like anything stolen from another movie. Even the creatures were original, and the acting was great. Howard really seemed like some mysterious creature from another world, and Giamatti really seemed so confused at times, and Shyamalan was great, too, because since he's the director and writer, he really knows what he wants the character he plays to be like, and I think every scene he was in was great.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Prince111 on August 04, 2008, 10:40:41 PM
I think it's really funny how people attack eachother like this movie is some sort of religion or something.  The movie was ok, I have the DVD and I've watched alot, but it's still just Ok.  If you all think I'm shallow because I don't get the movie as deep as you do, then so be it.  I love M. Night and will go see any of his movie just on his name, but that doesn't mean I have to LOVE every single one of them, that's impossible and ludacris.  Saying that the movie is the worst movie ever is a bit carried away, but that's his opinion, no more, no less.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Namaste on August 04, 2008, 10:51:12 PM
that's impossible and ludacris. 

lol i suppose it was only a matter of time before people started spelling "ludicrous" like the name of the rapper  ;x
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Prince111 on August 04, 2008, 10:58:40 PM
LOL   
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Cleveland Heep on August 12, 2008, 02:54:16 PM
I loved this movie (clearly by my screenname)

but if people are laughing in the theaters, you cant say its the people.


its the movie.

I bet you 100 bucks that if that same Laughing Crowd say Crash or Titanic or some other movie or even another Night Movie

they would have loved it.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Wags on August 12, 2008, 03:03:31 PM
I think it's really funny how people attack eachother like this movie is some sort of religion or something.  The movie was ok, I have the DVD and I've watched alot, but it's still just Ok.  If you all think I'm shallow because I don't get the movie as deep as you do, then so be it.  I love M. Night and will go see any of his movie just on his name, but that doesn't mean I have to LOVE every single one of them, that's impossible and ludacris.  Saying that the movie is the worst movie ever is a bit carried away, but that's his opinion, no more, no less.

I think the reason people attack each other over things like movies and such is because, in a weird psychological way, they associate themselves with that movie. If you tell people you like a movie, and they say it's the worst piece of trash they ever saw, then you will naturally get offended because it, in a way, is a reflection of you and your taste in movies.  And it's not like you are going to say "oh wait, you're right".

Say, for example, someone tells you to your face that your favorite band of all time sucks.  You're naturally going to try and change their mind, even though deep down you want to rip them in half.  Because, as most people here have probably found out, it is almost impossible to change someone's opinion on a matter without something extremely significant happening.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Prince111 on September 01, 2008, 09:28:40 PM
I think it's really funny how people attack eachother like this movie is some sort of religion or something.  The movie was ok, I have the DVD and I've watched alot, but it's still just Ok.  If you all think I'm shallow because I don't get the movie as deep as you do, then so be it.  I love M. Night and will go see any of his movie just on his name, but that doesn't mean I have to LOVE every single one of them, that's impossible and ludacris.  Saying that the movie is the worst movie ever is a bit carried away, but that's his opinion, no more, no less.

I think the reason people attack each other over things like movies and such is because, in a weird psychological way, they associate themselves with that movie. If you tell people you like a movie, and they say it's the worst piece of trash they ever saw, then you will naturally get offended because it, in a way, is a reflection of you and your taste in movies.  And it's not like you are going to say "oh wait, you're right".

Say, for example, someone tells you to your face that your favorite band of all time sucks.  You're naturally going to try and change their mind, even though deep down you want to rip them in half.  Because, as most people here have probably found out, it is almost impossible to change someone's opinion on a matter without something extremely significant happening.


I think you're right.  Atleast if you don't like a movie, have very good concrete ideas of why you thought it was a bad movie, back up your opinion.  I hate to say it, but, you're right.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Rohan on September 03, 2008, 09:58:32 AM
Worst movie ever?

Let me think... I thought HOSTEL part 1&2 were the worst movies ever. Oh, and GRINDHOUSE. And oh I am sorry "white Noise". This is great list keeps coming up,,, don't want to forget about "WANTED".

Lady In The Water is a creative work, buddy. Wake up. Make up your mind all over again.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Namaste on September 03, 2008, 09:55:33 PM
"wanted" was one of the worst movies ever. "white noise"  did startle me a few times but they were cheap shots, like having the radio come on with static at full blast in the middle of a scene.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: marco on September 04, 2008, 09:28:37 AM
Talking about bad movies??Here I am!! ;D
What do you think about The League of the Extraordinary Gentlemen??It is definitely one of the worst movies I've ever seen (probably THE worst ever :-X).
Van Helsing was very bad,too :-\
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Namaste on September 04, 2008, 01:27:16 PM
ive seen both of those..van helsing was pretty bad, and LEG was just too all-over-the-place
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Rohan on September 04, 2008, 10:35:28 PM
"wanted" was one of the worst movies ever. "white noise"  did startle me a few times but they were cheap shots, like having the radio come on with static at full blast in the middle of a scene.

Wanted was horrible. Good thing I was in the DRIVE-IN and I head to pay only 6 dollars. The only part I like when actually me and that girl I was with started making out. And then the movie finished. We both said, the movie sucked big time.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: steinmansbrain on September 11, 2008, 10:28:42 AM
I think The Happening recently stole the worst movie ever honour...


Van Helsing had Kate Beckinsale, and LOEG had some cool special effects so while both were terrible they had some redeeming qualities.

10,000 BC was pretty dire. So was Little Man.


Actually I think Little Man probably is worse than The Happening...

Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: GothMan on September 11, 2008, 04:58:21 PM
Actually I think Little Man probably is worse than The Happening...

Yeah, a little bit...  ;D
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Mr_Glass.1 on September 12, 2008, 12:34:31 PM
I'd say quite a bit worse, but I liked The Happening.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: shinchan on October 07, 2008, 03:29:34 AM
Hai Miles,u seems to understand what the LITW film are about.Could u tell me what it is?i am dying to know?we've(me,my brother and father) watched it like many times,but still we just blank,we understood the little peces of the story but not big picture.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Decadent Sympozium on October 21, 2008, 02:44:47 PM
Hai Miles,u seems to understand what the LITW film are about.Could u tell me what it is?i am dying to know?we've(me,my brother and father) watched it like many times,but still we just blank,we understood the little peces of the story but not big picture.
Care from my point of view?

Lady in the Water, like a prequel to Happening, is generally about human kind. Imagined, described and performed as a fairy tale, it directly speaks of problems in the world, but doesn't expose or ruin with rough reality. Each and every fairy tale ever made was not made to entertain, but to warn and teach ? so is this one. In great effort, James Newton Howard does his maximum to interpret this exquisite movie with beautiful, breath-taking orchestral perfection, which can only bring truthful inspiration after the movie, to the listener, and nothing less.

The whole world and humankind, throughout past, evolved from water. As said in the prologue of LitW, men had need to expand and conquer, and the purity which water as such is, vanished in that point. Further evolution of mankind, and you can tell by watching one day news, brings Earth to edge of destruction. Narfs, the sirens which talked to humans, are symbols for purity, and a metaphore for human conscious, the little thing inside your head that tells you what will turn wrong, but you ignore it because of your own selfish needs ? ?but man...man has forgotten...how to listen.? is quote from prologue, linking evolution with personal need,telling you that we distincted ourselves so far from the nature - we cannot hear it anymore.

Now, you are introduced to all variety of people, which eventually become significant for the entire story. This is the element, metaphor for nature's balance. All of us have a place in the world, all of us have significant role and all of us are directly responsible for everything else that happens. If you ignore that every day people get killed for nothing ? it is your fault too, because you are too selfish to try preventing that from continuing. If you see people fighting at the street, and you turn your head to other side, you are responsible for beatup. Likewise, if you can stand watching how your goverment is destroying everything and everybody, you too are responsible.

But Shymalan then, in form of Narf, offers another chance. It is that point in your life when you can make the difference, when you can, in inspiration, push limits and make things go different -> Victor would never finish the cookbook and bend the world if it wasn't for the Narf. All other characters, leaded by emotional, good man Cleveland who knows the brutality of humankind, then, in inspiration, decide to help and make things right for once. It is a kind of symbolism for nature's last gasps ? they are given one last chance to make things right. As the world is brutal and selfish, so Victor will die as a sacrifice for better tommorow. A toll which must be taken to set the balance in order. This is the prime point of movie. Salvation of humankind. You just need to hear the call. That's what this movie is about. Open your eyes and listen to what environment whispers. Same thing Charles Baudelaire went for with his colossal poetry.

There are other stories inside, ofcourse. For one, Shyamalan shows how modern film is made. He also knows how critics will react to his movie, so he does a series of scenes to show hollywood critic he knows what he's doing and what they will do. That's aslo why the critic dies, and exactly in a very typical, lame scene. He also puts himself in the role of savior, which is nothing but personalisation of his own thoughts, kind of self-profiling. The truth is, following ideology of this movie can be only prospering for the mankind.

The ritualism in this movie, and the cast of roles upon human are mere interpretation of events that must occur in order for something different, world-shaping to occur. The process will reach it's peak (When Cleveland cries and saves Story), and then the nature itself will help you (Tortutic, the supreme being that regulates JUSTICE, a karma of sort) will return favor and support you in your deeds. 

I can now separate every minute and element of this movie and tell you why that moment, quote, gesture or event is there and what purpose does it have but you didn't ask for that, you asked for what is it about, so I'll stop here. Although I'd like to write additional 20 pages.


(I think I once wrote a prettier article on litw, but I can't find it now)
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Namaste on October 21, 2008, 03:01:49 PM
Excellent analysis. That was very well put, and showed me things I had not previously ascertained.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Decadent Sympozium on October 21, 2008, 03:58:50 PM
Excellent analysis. That was very well put, and showed me things I had not previously ascertained.

Can you give an example?
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Namaste on July 29, 2010, 12:18:39 AM
Decadent I left this for far too long without responding, but I have kept it in my list since the day you asked this question. I've decided to respond in my 3000th post.

You know, I really can't remember which were the things I had not figured out before, but I have since made these points (that you mentioned) part of my general understanding of the film. One thing I'm sure I had not figured out on my own was that the roles of the characters represented events that had to happen in order to enlighten the human race.

I will end with this, a quote I shall be remembered for: "Love is the product of a mind enlightened beyond reason."
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Imalshen on July 29, 2010, 01:29:27 AM
Congrats on your 3000th! And I like the quote.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: shinchan on July 30, 2010, 12:45:16 AM
OH MY GOD...I AM SO STUPID....I DONT KNOW THAT THERE'S SOMEONE ACTUALLY AWNSER MY QUESTION AND I JUST READ IT NOW!!!!!

this is what u get from giving up ur hope.u see that i asked that question OCT 7th 2008 (2 years ago!)..iam waiting for someone would have generosity to awnser that.i've waited 4 a week but still nobody awnser it,so i just think that nobody cares 4 awnsering.that is why i stop seeing this site till specter mail me.Coz the big reason i join this site is i wanna be with poeple that mind to share and discuss all M films.When nobody awnser it, i got sad and think maybe i just hv to find someone that likes M films,and i got zero result.

But now,its like meant to be.....i finally know that someone does awnser it and i hv to know it 2 years later.Unbelievable...

THANK U SOO MUCH Decadent Sympozium .I DO WANT U TO WRITE 20 PAGES FOR ME ;D

NOTE : SORRY FOR SENTENCES.DIDNT QUITE WELL FOR PAST TENSE. ;D
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Namaste on July 31, 2010, 12:23:32 AM
It was meant to be. I saw you on there Shinchan and thought "wow and he has been silent for so long"
The thread had been sitting alone ont he bottomof my "replies to your posts" list for all that time and I just never felt ready to respond to it. Then I wanted to do something special for number 3000 so I finally responded to it.
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: shinchan on August 02, 2010, 12:17:27 AM
i hope that Decadent Sympozium not mad at me   :(...one thing that i cant stand in the world is feeling guilty....
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Imalshen on August 02, 2010, 10:20:33 AM
I doubt Decadent is mad. Probably just off gallivanting around the internet. 8)
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: shinchan on August 03, 2010, 01:13:03 AM
he's not.... ;D
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Imalshen on August 03, 2010, 01:34:23 AM
Not mad? Or not gallivanting? lol
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: shinchan on August 03, 2010, 02:02:11 AM
hihihhihi...not mad....
Title: Re: Worst Movie Ever
Post by: Imalshen on August 03, 2010, 10:12:26 AM
Good. :)