Noah/Ivy/Cloak and Color.


Author Topic: Noah/Ivy/Cloak and Color.  (Read 9223 times)

Prince111

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Noah/Ivy/Cloak and Color.
« on: August 05, 2008, 12:16:59 AM »
I'm watching The Village right now and a few things occured to me and questions came to mind. 

Ok, now, in the scene where Ivy ventures into the woods and Noah steals the cloak, with Ivy's intuitiveness and inner sight, how did she not see his color and know it was him like she saw Lucius's color?  That's my first question.

My second question is, obviously Noah had to steal the cloak in order to scare Ivy into not going to the towns to help Lucius so he would die and be with Noah.  What do you think would have happened if Noah hadn't fell in that hole?  Would he have chased Ivy all around the woods, first of all, and secondly, if he had caught her, (in which he had his hands on her but went passed her), would he have tried to kidnapp her and take her farther into the woods or would he have dragged her back to the village, risking his first objective, or would he have taken the attitude as "if I can't be with you, nobody can have," and killed her?  I seriously don't know what he would have done, I need further thought from everyone to help me out on this one.

The thing that I think would have helped that whole scene out and made it much much scarier is for M. Night to have shown Noah chasing Ivy around the woods, then he falls into the hole, THEN her father tells her about the secret the elders have been hiding from everyone, then cut back to Noah dying, then time lapse it where it's alittle bit darker than it was at the beginning of the scene and we follow Ivy to the towns, but while that's happening, we hear her fathers voice saying that the monsters are something he read about in his history books, then we hear sounds that could be the monsters, but maybe not.  I think that scene would have worked better that way, for me atleast.       

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Re: Noah/Ivy/Cloak and Color.
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2008, 02:48:00 AM »
yay, another Vilage post (i am the unofficial resident Village geek around here)

First of all..please read all the posts about a movie before you start a new thread on it. We have already discussed the color thing extensively :P ("what is his color" and "an interesting thought" especially)

The question about his motivation for dressing up and going into the woods is valid, though. It's great for the symbolism that now the evil they all had feared has been born anew in Noah (not to mention fodder for one more suspenseful scene), but what logical sense does it make? I think he didnt want her to go to the towns, because if Lucius died, he might have a chance with her, but that doesnt explain dressing up. We never really get to see the facial expressions or even much emotive action from Noah in the woods to get a clue as to what he's thinking. It seems like he's just some beast bent on terrorizing her. Noah was clearly disturbed by the consequences of his violent act against Lucius, so I don't feel like it would be natural for him to go right back out to try to commit more violence that soon after, unless maybe he was pushed over the edge by Ivy's rejection and breaking of their 'no hitting' deal. But again, I don't know what plot-related reason he had for dressing up. Anyone have any ideas?

As for the order of the revelations about the creatures, I feel like it would be too much at once to discover that the creatures were only farce AND that Noah (who wasnt originally involved) has taken one of the costumes and gone off after Ivy. I think the flashback was enough to bring us back into a belief in the possibility that such creatures actually exist in the woods, and set up that one last supernatural element. I do wish they had kept the "pipes" scene in there though.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 02:50:57 AM by Namaste »
See the villain's larger eyes insinuating a just-off-normal perspective on how they see the world? I see signs Lucius Hunt; just not as you see dead people. I am so very happy we saw..each other, and no I will not tell you what color love is. Stop asking.

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Re: Noah/Ivy/Cloak and Color.
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2008, 11:30:36 AM »
Quote
I don't know what plot-related reason he had for dressing up. Anyone have any ideas?

Noah put on the creature suit because deep down, he really was one of them. It was symbolic of his depraved condition and inhuman state of mind. The rabid animal inside him finally overwhelmed his nature. At that point, hunting Ivy, he had given himself up to hatred and cast aside even his affection for her; his "love" was just a jealous, animal instinct that drove him mad, and he no longer wanted what was best for her.

He put on the creature suit because he had become evil.

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Re: Noah/Ivy/Cloak and Color.
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2008, 12:09:14 PM »
Well yeah i know the symbolic reason..im asking what logical plot-related reason could he have had to put it on? Do you think the character knew the symbolism of it? Cuz i dont think he was that smart or that artistic to want to do it just to symbolize his feelings.

See the villain's larger eyes insinuating a just-off-normal perspective on how they see the world? I see signs Lucius Hunt; just not as you see dead people. I am so very happy we saw..each other, and no I will not tell you what color love is. Stop asking.

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Re: Noah/Ivy/Cloak and Color.
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2008, 12:50:00 PM »
I'm just saying that this particular symbolism is important to the plot because it explains what much of the movie is about. When you understand the point implied, a lot of other things fall into line. The message of the movie becomes clearer; without that symbolism of Noah taking on the "bad color", the whole thing would be much more obscure. The symbolism is necessary to tie Noah's behavior and Those We Don't Speak Of together, to show they are the same. To show that humans are the greatest monsters. Then you understand that it was Noah all along skinning animals and leaving them around to disturb the community. Trying to create fear.

With Shyamalan's films, the plot is often reliant on the symbolism. Which is why he isn't absolutely adored; not everyone can see the symbolism (or simply appreciate it), so the movie seems stupid to them. The plot really seems empty without it.

So anyway, I think Noah wearing the "bad color" was necessary for the plot because it shows who the monsters really are and makes sense of the "loose cannon" creating unrest in the village. Otherwise it would have had to be explained with words, which isn't as powerful as imagery.

Also, I do think there was a bit of an "artistic" flair to Noah dressing himself up. It's all part of his twisted mindset. He wanted to be a monster. Kind of like how some people dress themselves up as elves and orcs and go LARPing, hitting eachother with homemade weapons and stuff.  ::) It's all about who we view ourselves as, who we know we really are or want to be deep down. It was an incredible statement in psychology for M Night Shyamalan to have Noah to wear the mantle of the greatest evil he knew.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 12:55:51 PM by Unbroken »

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Re: Noah/Ivy/Cloak and Color.
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2008, 12:55:57 PM »

With Shyamalan's films, the plot is often reliant on the symbolism. Which is why he isn't absolutely adored; not everyone can see the symbolism, so the movie seems stupid to them. The plot really seems empty without it.

Also, I do think there was a bit of an "artistic" flair to Noah dressing himself up. It's all part of his twisted mindset. He wanted to be a monster.


Actually now that you mention it, you remind me that I actually came up with the answer a few weeks ago when i mentioned Noah's love for dressing up in animal feathers (or furs) referenced by his mother in the scene about the flight of the birds. So..yeah he was just playing dress-up. And I know symbolism is important in shyamalan films, but the characters still need a logical motivation for what they do. (and i think now we have that motivation from Noah)
See the villain's larger eyes insinuating a just-off-normal perspective on how they see the world? I see signs Lucius Hunt; just not as you see dead people. I am so very happy we saw..each other, and no I will not tell you what color love is. Stop asking.

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Re: Noah/Ivy/Cloak and Color.
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2008, 01:05:09 PM »
Well I don't think he was "just" playing dress-up. He had completely lost himself in his new identity. He wasn't killing animals only for the furs, he made a point of leaving them around where people would find them. He was making a statement.

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Re: Noah/Ivy/Cloak and Color.
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2008, 03:06:03 PM »
I dont see where it's stated or implied in the movie that he left them in any particular place intentionally. I think he just left them where they were when he finished skinning them.
See the villain's larger eyes insinuating a just-off-normal perspective on how they see the world? I see signs Lucius Hunt; just not as you see dead people. I am so very happy we saw..each other, and no I will not tell you what color love is. Stop asking.

Prince111

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Re: Noah/Ivy/Cloak and Color.
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2008, 04:50:46 PM »
Well I don't think he was "just" playing dress-up. He had completely lost himself in his new identity. He wasn't killing animals only for the furs, he made a point of leaving them around where people would find them. He was making a statement.

Wait a second here, you mean to tell me that Noah was killing all of those animals?  I guess it makes since because at the night of the marriage two of the elders were talking it over who could have put all those animals there.  It totally makes since now.  I don't think I agree that Noah was in love with Ivy out of jealousy though, I think that he really loved her and I do believe that had he caught her in the woods he would have killed her, both because he had succumb to his evil side and that Iif I can't have you no one can mentality.

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Re: Noah/Ivy/Cloak and Color.
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2008, 05:03:41 PM »
I think he just left them where they were when he finished skinning them.

No, he hung dead animals over the door of Lucius's home. His way of saying "back off, chum" I suppose.  ;)

And yes Prince111, Noah was the one doing it all along. As for your statement of Noah still "loving" Ivy, I guess that depends on what "love" is. "Love" for someone can really be self-love, harmful and possessive instead of giving and caring. Then it's not really love at all. Noah made his feelings for Ivy all about himself. And that drove him to harm her and the person she loved. So... it's not really love anymore.

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Re: Noah/Ivy/Cloak and Color.
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2008, 10:19:35 PM »
Hmm, i dont remember that. I'll have to look for it next time i watch the movie. All i remember is animals lying all over the place.
See the villain's larger eyes insinuating a just-off-normal perspective on how they see the world? I see signs Lucius Hunt; just not as you see dead people. I am so very happy we saw..each other, and no I will not tell you what color love is. Stop asking.

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Re: Noah/Ivy/Cloak and Color.
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2008, 06:03:53 AM »
Well yeah i know the symbolic reason..im asking what logical plot-related reason could he have had to put it on? Do you think the character knew the symbolism of it? Cuz i dont think he was that smart or that artistic to want to do it just to symbolize his feelings.



What logical plot-related reason? What do you mean by that exactly? Why would he do that? If you go for the argument to that thing, the possibilities are numerous but they all eventually relate to psychology. I am a student of psychology, so a thing or two perhaps make more sense to me than to someone else. For one, Noah is degeneric. For two, he's in love. For three, there are special rules in this village that relate only to him; eg. not all are punished by being locked in a room. Just he is. On the top, he is mental, and mental people, although strained, have a little lightball in their head for some things (just like a blind person hears better that person of healthy sight). Some circuits in his brain understand and connect specific notions and events under specific conditions in a specific maner. After the breakdown, Joaquin's death, Bryce's rejection, general confuseness in the village because of recent "warnings", and beatup, Noah, like any other mental, cracks. In a state of crack, a person usually takes actions that are motivated by a series of associations given beforehand. Eg. (real event) a guy strangled his girlfriend's father because, of bad situation at home, he thought her father is influencing his daughter, and therefore is choking his marriage. So what he does? He goes to her father and kills it by an association - strangling. That's the usual, common way killers behave - they compose a thought in their had made of associations. It's all in the madman's head. Noah knew of the costume, he knew everything is false (or, if he didn't, he realised), and his retarded, sick mind came up with the idea of hunting Bryce in that costume. Perhaps, if she didn't kill him, he might have tried god knows what - but I can bet that, in real world, he would try to rape her. I can guarantee.
Manoj Night Shyamalan is Charles Baudelaire of movie art. That is non-deniable. Baudelaire's value is non-deniable.

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Re: Noah/Ivy/Cloak and Color.
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2008, 02:18:29 PM »
Hmm, those are some interesting points, I need to go back through and watch The Village again, see if there's anything else we're missing.
I see the world Lucius Hunt, just not the way you see it.


Ivy Walker to Lucius Hunt in The Village

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Re: Noah/Ivy/Cloak and Color.
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2008, 02:40:09 PM »
Yeah..i think i still notice something new every time i watch the village ;x
See the villain's larger eyes insinuating a just-off-normal perspective on how they see the world? I see signs Lucius Hunt; just not as you see dead people. I am so very happy we saw..each other, and no I will not tell you what color love is. Stop asking.

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Re: Noah/Ivy/Cloak and Color.
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2008, 03:51:57 PM »
It's like that with all of Night's films.
I see the world Lucius Hunt, just not the way you see it.


Ivy Walker to Lucius Hunt in The Village