Worst Movie Ever


Author Topic: Worst Movie Ever  (Read 33644 times)

okokokok

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Re: Worst Movie Ever
« Reply #60 on: February 20, 2008, 01:28:20 PM »
DILinator:

Fair Enough.  But this is not, and never was, about whether we like or don't like the movie.  I just don't appreciate the idea of walking into a situation, saying whatever you want, and then expect to just walk away and not be held accountable for it is all.  In any situation really.  To put something out into the world, say whatever you want to whoever, and then think it's ok to just walk away. Fine. That is what you are apparently ok with.  Even though you EVENTUALLY made some actual critical points AFTER this whole discussion started, you would rather not have to.  That is what we were discussing, it was never about the movie.  Also, we are discussing that to you (it is very evident in your posts as it is your most common firing point) the most important credential (not the only credential) in whether a movie is good or "legitimate storytelling" is the consensus of the majority, or how far the consensus strays from the majority.

To me, It is not bold to love a movie and to discuss why you love it, regardless of how many don't like it.  However, in general, to say a movie is not "legitimate storytelling" is an ENORMOUSLY bold statement.  It's not wrong, or incorrect, or not valid, but it is bold.  It becomes even bolder when you back up your very a specific assessment as though THAT specific assessment is why the majority didn't like it, when they may have a host of different reasons for not appreciating the movie.  Speaking for people is quite bold in my opinion.  This is what we were discussing.

I personally have enjoyed the discussion and have no ill-will towards you.  I only wish more people were involved in this discussion as I think the questions that came of it are really interesting concerning film/art and how it's perceived, accepted and discussed.

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Re: Worst Movie Ever
« Reply #61 on: February 20, 2008, 04:27:46 PM »
DILinator:

Fair Enough.  But this is not, and never was, about whether we like or don't like the movie.  I just don't appreciate the idea of walking into a situation, saying whatever you want, and then expect to just walk away and not be held accountable for it is all.  In any situation really.  To put something out into the world, say whatever you want to whoever, and then think it's ok to just walk away. Fine. That is what you are apparently ok with.  Even though you EVENTUALLY made some actual critical points AFTER this whole discussion started, you would rather not have to.  That is what we were discussing, it was never about the movie.  Also, we are discussing that to you (it is very evident in your posts as it is your most common firing point) the most important credential (not the only credential) in whether a movie is good or "legitimate storytelling" is the consensus of the majority, or how far the consensus strays from the majority.

I guess we differ as to what is "an actual critical point".  I didn't just come in, say, "This movie is crap", and walk out, as is common amongst those who have no real substance to their stance.  I came in, stated a divergent opinion to the normative in the thread, and then tried to give an olive branch to thos who disagree so as to keep the peace.  So I really disagree with your entire assessment of my part in this, as stated above.  Maybe that's how you perceive it, but that's certainly not how it went down.  I too don't condone people bashing movies without any real purpose other than being a troll. 

As for my infamous comment about "legitimate storytelling", I wasn't stating the reason for that being majority rules, just that the general dislike for the movie would seem to back that point up.  I was referring more to the entire contrived plot and characters in the movie.  However, backing down from that statement some, I would say that anybody can create any story, and have it be "leigtimate storytelling".  As you've mentioned, it's a Fantasy movie, and in that genre you can pretty much create anything your mind can conceive, and who's to say whether that's legitimate or not.  Make it up, throw it out there, and if people buy it, good for you.  If they don't, then you'll be criticized for it as Shyamalan has for LITW.  Sure, some people liked it, as a number of you here do.  However, within my large circle of friends, co-workers, and acquaintances, I've met two kinds of people: those who have seen the movie, and didn't like it... strongly! And those who haven't seen it because they thought it looked dumb to begin with.  Why, just today I had the LITW soundtrack at my desk, and when a co-worker came up and saw it he said "Boy!  That movie was awful!", not even knowing my take on it. 

My point all along has been the same: good for you if you liked it, and I won't criticize you and expect you to defend why you like it.  However, there's a reason it's been so universally disliked, and it boils down to the fact that in most people's opinion, it's a flawed movie.  Whatever the reason, and regardless of whether you accept those reasons or not, that's just how most people feel.  As an artist myself, if so many people disliked a creation of mine, I would be foolish not to take a long, hard look at what I made, and maybe humble myself to realize that I made a mistake.  As that same co-worker I mentioned earlier said to me later in our conversation (I was hyping up The Happening to him), "Shyamalan is a Home Run hitter... either he hits it out of the park, or strikes out badly." 

We as avid Shyamalan fans need to take a step back at times, and realize that as much as we love his works (for the most part at least), we may be looking at them through "M.Night" colored glasses at times, and miss things that others see and dislike.  Just a thought....     


To me, It is not bold to love a movie and to discuss why you love it, regardless of how many don't like it.  However, in general, to say a movie is not "legitimate storytelling" is an ENORMOUSLY bold statement.  It's not wrong, or incorrect, or not valid, but it is bold.  It becomes even bolder when you back up your very a specific assessment as though THAT specific assessment is why the majority didn't like it, when they may have a host of different reasons for not appreciating the movie.  Speaking for people is quite bold in my opinion.  This is what we were discussing.

I refuted above the notion that my statement was solely based on the majority not liking it.  As for the statement itself, I agree that it was a bold statement, and have since backed down from saying it so strongly, as stated above.  However, speaking for people who have: spoken to me personally, spoken on numurous message boards on the internet, spoken through tons of polls which rate the movie low, and spoken by a lackluster box office that didn't even break even before DVD sales, is not that bold of a move in my opinion.  The people have spoken loud and clear, in many different forms, and I'm just repeating their stance.  Not really all that bold.  But I give you the prior statement I'd made about "legitimate storytelling", which I now retract, fair enough?   

I personally have enjoyed the discussion and have no ill-will towards you.  I only wish more people were involved in this discussion as I think the questions that came of it are really interesting concerning film/art and how it's perceived, accepted and discussed.

I agree, and also concede that my opinions about film/art are not always mainstream.  I despise those that I call "film snobs", which run amok over at the IMDB, and their whole elitest view of movies, and those that disagree with them.  As a filmmaker myself, my number one concern will always be to provide enjoyment to others viewing my works, as I feel anything else is a selfish motive.  Sure, you can't please everybody, but as long as most people enjoy what I do, I will continue to do it!  Now, since I don't agree with the sentiments of the title of this thread, I'm not going to continue posting in it, and keeping it active at the top of the forum.  Not my favorite movie, but certainly not the worst ever!   
"See what you have to ask yourself is what kind of person are you? Are you the kind that sees signs, sees miracles? Or do you believe that people just get lucky?"

I'm a "Signs" person.

Mr_Glass.1

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Re: Worst Movie Ever
« Reply #62 on: February 21, 2008, 09:47:32 AM »
Allright, I guess I'll get one last statement in.  I think that art is in the eye of the beholder, but there is a difference between art, and quality film.  I know my friends and family agree that Night puts out films with good quality, cinematography, that sort of thing.  Where we dissagree is whether he creates art and good stories.  That is where personal opinion comes in, I think it is art, and a great story, but others in my family don't.  I think for the most part, art is starting to slip away in Hollywood, that's why there are so many action films, which is fine, they run a business so they put out what the public wants.  America has become somewhat of a shallow culture, not wanting to study anything deep, or view, or consider stuff that takes time to think about.  Art though, is supposed to entertain, so if people are entertained by action films, or films that have little or no depth, then let them.  I prefer to study things and view things that make me think.
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swiveltam

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Re: Worst Movie Ever
« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2008, 10:20:08 AM »
This movie is so so bad.  It makes no sense.  Poor acting, poor writing, just plain poor.  It was like M Night watched 20 movies the night before he wrote it and then just randomly copied that stuff he watched into this plot.  

It really says something when the audience of your film breaks out laughing at parts that were meant to be serious.  That happened 7 times at the theater i was at.  Starting with that cheesy opening and ending with the evil lawn monkeys killing the lawn dog.  The eagle reminded me of the eagel on the colbeirt report.  M night sucks at acting too.  I want a refund or atleast a promise to make no more movies.    

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy this movie and it's interesting that you share your opinion. I will have to respectfully disagree. I'm not a die-hard M. Night fan, and I've NEVER seen "The Sixth Sense" or "Unbreakable."

I LOVED this movie on so many levels and although I don't NEED to defend my tastes, perhaps their were a lot of sublteties that this movie had, that passed by you?  I LOVED what Mr_Glass.1 said and agree whole-heartedly. I thought this movie was SOOOO artful and so well-crafted and the characters so interesting and varied. I LOVE every single inch of this movie and wouldn't change a thing. My children and I have watched it over 7 times. It is just what a good folk-lore fairy tale, bed-time story should be and more.

Perhaps you are using the wrong yard-stick to measure this film. I veiw this film from an indy/family movie perspective, much like "The Secret of Roan Inish," which is another similar type story.

Anyway, it's always nice to have a "pleasant" (and I emphasize PLEASANT) discussion on why you did or did not like something. It is also nice to find this forum and others that recognize M. Night's originality and artistic vision. Keep 'em coming Mr. Shyalaman!

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Re: Worst Movie Ever
« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2008, 08:57:22 AM »
I agree with you swiveltam.  I've also watched it a bunch, and I always like the feeling I get during and after watching it.  It is a bedtime story, simple, but layered entertainment.
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DILinator

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Re: Worst Movie Ever
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2008, 10:01:23 AM »
As sombody who is a filmmaker myself (as many others here are or aspire to be), I definitely look at film as an art, and something that relies heavilly on opinions to define what is good and bad.  However, even from an artsy point of view, I thought that LITW failed on a number of levels, and just comes off as a failed fantasy story.  I don't think it was strong in the fantasy department, and the reality department wasn't there either, leaving it with nothing.  I think the movie and premise started off with potential, but progressively bogged down and fizzled.  I described it best in the other thread:  LITW is a cult film, and will never have a large following because it's not very easilly accessible, even from an artsy standpoint.
"See what you have to ask yourself is what kind of person are you? Are you the kind that sees signs, sees miracles? Or do you believe that people just get lucky?"

I'm a "Signs" person.

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Re: Worst Movie Ever
« Reply #66 on: March 26, 2008, 10:54:26 AM »
That makes sense DILinator.  I think it is a cerebral film, it connects with some people, and with most other people is just doesn't.  You are right, it will only ever have a cult following, and I understand what you are saying about it not being easily accessible, that definately makes sense.
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Re: Worst Movie Ever
« Reply #67 on: March 26, 2008, 03:26:38 PM »
And to further clarify what I'm saying, I just wanted to point out that the same film can strike two different people very differently.  While one intelligent person may look at LITW and find it cerebral, another just as intelligent person can look at it and find it mind-numbing.  It doesn't necessarily mean either is wrong in their perspective on it.  I just want to make it clear though that plenty of people who love "cerebral" thinking-man's movies, also find LITW horrible.  So it's not cut and dried one way or another.  That's why I think describing it as a "cult" film is best.  Because to the masses, explaining why you like it won't change the fact that a lot of people hated it.  Getting back to your Star Wars anology you used elsewhere, as good as many people find Star Wars, there are some who hate it.  Go figure, but it is a cult-ish film, as many in the sci-fi (and fantasy, which is what I'd label LITW) are.  They're just not going to resonate with everybody. 
"See what you have to ask yourself is what kind of person are you? Are you the kind that sees signs, sees miracles? Or do you believe that people just get lucky?"

I'm a "Signs" person.

okokokok

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Re: Worst Movie Ever
« Reply #68 on: March 27, 2008, 04:51:42 AM »
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I think it is a cerebral film, it connects with some people, and with most other people is just doesn't.  You are right, it will only ever have a cult following, and I understand what you are saying about it not being easily accessible, that definately makes sense.

I happen to feel exactly the opposite.  I don't think describing a movie as "cerebral" has anything to do with being intelligent, but rather it specifies that someone must think their way through the movie.  In that respect, I don't think Lady in the Water is something you have to think your way through, but rather something that you have to feel your way through.  I never understood why people talk about about  "turning off you brain" to enjoy a movie as if that is an insult.  There is far too much unnecessary thinking and not enough feeling going on when it comes to art, in my opinion.  That is both the fault of movie-goers, filmmakers, and the American culture in my opinion.  I bring up culture only because I know the genre of magical realism isn't as big in the states as it is in other parts of the world.  And it's interesting because I have heard many people who have problems with certain aspects of this film that happen to be staples of magical realism.  Kind of like criticizing a comedy for trying to be funny.

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LITW is a cult film, and will never have a large following because it's not very easily accessible, even from an artsy standpoint.
I don't know why it is any less accessible than The Lord of the Rings, or Edward Scissorhands, or Star Wars, or Harry Potter, or The Wizard of OZ, or any fantasy film.  Can you explain why you think that is?

And I have a feeling this movie will have a much larger following then what is suggested by how much it made in it's initial release.

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Re: Worst Movie Ever
« Reply #69 on: March 27, 2008, 08:52:25 AM »
I think I was using the word "cerebral" incorrectly.  I meant it to be something that makes you feel much more then another film, gets you to feel empathy for characters,, in particular, the gloaming effect from the lighting.  I partially agree with you okokokok, but I feel like there are to many films where they want you to just accept what is going on without thinking about, I feel that is true especially in slasher films. 
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Re: Worst Movie Ever
« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2008, 12:18:18 PM »
Quote
LITW is a cult film, and will never have a large following because it's not very easily accessible, even from an artsy standpoint.
I don't know why it is any less accessible than The Lord of the Rings, or Edward Scissorhands, or Star Wars, or Harry Potter, or The Wizard of OZ, or any fantasy film.  Can you explain why you think that is?

And I have a feeling this movie will have a much larger following then what is suggested by how much it made in it's initial release.

First off, I think the saying "the proof is in the pudding" applies here.  At least with the LOTR or Harry Potter movies (which already had an established fan-base from their literary roots), and Star Wars movies, they were clearly accepted on a much larger level relatively easilly.  Honestly, Edward Scissorhands is a movie that is more comperable to LITW than any of the other ones mentioned, and it is also one that receives mixed reviews due to it's less-accessible nature.  I've already addressed specific problems I thought LITW had, so I won't regurgitate those here.  But as for why I think LITW is less accessible, I think the reality of how it's been received speaks to that quite clearly.  It's not hyperbole to say that everybody I've spoken to who's seen the movie dislikes it, most pretty strongly. Whether the movie had potential or not, or whether there's some greater story here that's being muddied is irrelevant when discussing the movie's presentation and reception.  It doesn't present itself well, the story is not easilly accessible to the majority of it's viewers, and as a result, the film suffers.  That's just simple observation of the reaction to the film.  It's the filmmaker's job to make sure his movies are clear, concise, and understandable, and in LITW's case, I believe Shyamalan failed to do that, dooming the movie.

As for this much larger following that's coming, I just don't see it.  Not when there is such unilateral disdain for the movie from everybody I've come into contact with and mentioned the movie to, as well as those who haven't seen the movie, but have absolutely no desire to.  For those that enjoy the movie, feel free to continue enjoying it!  But don't expect popular opinion to "come around", because I have a very strong feeling based on simple observation and discussion with a fairly large sample size, that it's just not going to happen. 
"See what you have to ask yourself is what kind of person are you? Are you the kind that sees signs, sees miracles? Or do you believe that people just get lucky?"

I'm a "Signs" person.

swiveltam

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Re: Worst Movie Ever
« Reply #71 on: March 27, 2008, 05:24:49 PM »
I also think people are comparing apples to oranges. I think it would help if you defined what genre you think LITW fits into. I don't think you can compare it to LOTR which was much too violent and long and scary for younger children. I do think you CAN compare it to Edward Scissorhands, The first couple Harry Potters , "Whale Rider," and have any of you seen "The Secret of Roan Inish?" It very much fits that genre which is "Indy Family." For my family I search for things that I can enjoy and that the kids will enjoy and that has a different aspect than the rest of the the movies like "Free Willie" or "Underdog."

I think it may be that those that do not embrace the film expected it to be something it wasn't meant to be.

Also, I was wondering why you would not consider "Cult" films art? (or did I misunderstand your statement)?

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Re: Worst Movie Ever
« Reply #72 on: March 27, 2008, 06:44:02 PM »
The reason I brought all those movies up is because they are all fantasy faire and I get the impression that the fantasy elements are what DIlinator is talking about when he labels it as inaccessible.  I could be wrong, but that is why I am asking.

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First off, I think the saying "the proof is in the pudding" applies here.  At least with the LOTR or Harry Potter movies (which already had an established fan-base from their literary roots), and Star Wars movies, they were clearly accepted on a much larger level relatively easilly.  Honestly, Edward Scissorhands is a movie that is more comperable to LITW than any of the other ones mentioned, and it is also one that receives mixed reviews due to it's less-accessible nature.
 

The question is WHY do you think this is the case?  Not "Hey, can you tell me how many people you have talked to who don't like this movie?"  We get it, you know a lot of people who didn't like it, and you've been on the internet and the majority of the people who saw this film didn't like it.  I am not saying that those movies aren't accessible, so there is no reason to point out how accessible they are to try and prove something.  The accessibility of those movies is a given, not a rebuttal.  The question is WHY do you think Lady in the Water inaccessible, as opposed to other fantasy type films that are, like Harry Potter or Star Wars?  Is the why because it was poorly made in your opinion, or because of the specific subject matter?  There is no reason to have to prove or label what the movie is any longer.  Where does that get anyone? What I'm interested in is why you think, not how many other people think something
And as far as Edward Scissorhands goes, that movies fan base by far overshadows it detractors, so I don't know how you are possibly comparing it's review status with Lady in the Water.  Go look at some movie sights and you'll see what people think about it Edward Scissorhands.(RottenTomatoes, IMDB, BOXOFFICEMOJO, are ones I looked at, but there are plenty others) it's not far behind The Sixth Sense on some and even ahead of it on RottenTomatoes.

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I've already addressed specific problems I thought LITW had, so I won't regurgitate those here.

What's strange about this one is that you call it regurgitating if you were to discuss your issues with the movie again.  But you freely regurgitate and continually drive home the fact that a lot of people didn't like this movie over and over.  It's in like every post.  You write about other people SO MUCH MORE then you talk about your own ideas and thoughts about the movie.  If you weren't talking about what other people thought about this movie, it seems like you would have little to say.  Honestly, go look at your posts.


Mr_Glass.1

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Re: Worst Movie Ever
« Reply #73 on: March 28, 2008, 08:22:58 AM »
Allright, first of all, I think people are talking by each other.  The title of the thread is worst movie ever.  Are we talking about what the public thinks, or what we personally think.  I think we should start there to clear some things up.
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Re: Worst Movie Ever
« Reply #74 on: March 29, 2008, 08:54:20 AM »
I think you're right Mr.Glass, that we are simply talking by each other.  I've clearly made my point, repeatedly, but it's evidentially not hitting home or being understood by some.  I think what I'm stating is a clear point of fact: people on a VERY LARGE scale have a hard time liking or getting interested in LITW.  They have a hard time ACCESSING it's world, or buying into the story the movie's trying to tell.  All the people that dislike it, overwhelmingly so, is clear proof of that, and that's all I'm saying.  I don't think that point can be debated, and trying to refute fact is pretty foolish. There are plenty of movies I like that some would find inaccessible,  but that doesn't mean I have to think they're bad too.  I'm not telling anybody that because others don't like the movie, they shouldn't either.  But I am quick to defend those who dislike the movie from being labeled as the ones who are "missing something" when they watch the movie, because clearly, the movie is not very easily accessible.  I still have not labeled anybody who likes the movie in a negative way, nor will I, as I firmly believe everybody's entitled to their own opinion when it comes to movies.  But whether the movie is easily accessible or not isn't opinion, since clearly, the vast majority of people who watch it don't like it.   

For the record, I liked Edward Scissorhands decently enough. Not one of my favorite movies, but I thought it was better than LITW.  Based on your own post okokokok, evidentially a lot of people agree with me on that as well.... 
"See what you have to ask yourself is what kind of person are you? Are you the kind that sees signs, sees miracles? Or do you believe that people just get lucky?"

I'm a "Signs" person.